Mineral Oil Submerged Computer

[kepler]

Hello, I've just read the interesting page about the submerged computer. I just want to ask you if it would be possible to use distilled water instead of oil. Water in fact has a less viscosity and a greater heat capacity, if I remember well.
Sorry if this question was posted before, but I didn't have time to read all the pages of this thread!

[PCC- Builder Dan]

Distilled water works... for a couple of days.

The trouble with distilled water is that it's still water - it's a polar molecule, and when it picks up ions, it becomes conductive. Distilled or even de-ionized water will pick up ions and other particles from the computer hardware and become ionized, and start conducting. It's just a matter of time, and not very much of that.

[Locke]

Yeah, water is pretty corrosive. I remember Tom's Hardware tried their build in distilled water initially, and they ended up getting crashes after only a few minutes.

Maybe you could try some of that non-conductive water cooling fluid if you want to keep the viscosity down.

Hey Dan, how did the pump handle the oil when you guys had the system hooked up to the radiator? I was thinking of getting one similar, and I wanted to make sure the oil doesn't kill the life on it. Thanks.

[cinemania]

Hello from Greece,

I am about to complete my submerged pc but i am standing in front of some oil problems. :bang

1. First of all i do not know how to find mineral oil in my country (internet buying has really expensive shipping) bacause in Greek language mineral oil is a general word of oil. So it would be really helpfull if you could be more specific of what type of mineral oil you use (for example of ste oil's 70fg, 200fg or 500fg?).

2. If not what is the difference of using baby oil and paraffin oil? Is paraffin oil non-conductive? I think that paraffin oil is really flammable, is this true?

Thanks

[gpvirgin]

Has anyone tried to sink a bluetooth transmitter yet? This would knock out a few of the cables coming out the back, maybe make things easier once established...

[HKLN]

You can put the computer and oil inside a transparent bag (e.g large ziplock bag), and put the bag under water (keep the opening above water). I've tried this and found this is very efficient. The CPU remains as cool as the water. Drop some ice to make it cooler.

You can also do this for the harddisk, except you don't fill oil inside the bag. There is not much air between the harddisk and bag because of water pressure. The harddisk becomes much cool and silent.

[tegrevboy]

hello everyone new here. But not to comp modding scene. Well i can honestly say that i have read every single post on this thread. I have a aquired a 10 gallon aquarium realizing that might be a bit expensive. As far as mineral costs..but just wanted to thank everyone for all of the info that has been put up here. Just short of needing a PSU this mineral oil pc will be in the works soon. And of course thanks to the guys at PUGET. I will keep everyone up to date also hopefully with some pics. And probably more questions than you care to see .. LOL

Thanks

[nipil]

Good day to you all. I read the original article and noticed it's been exactly one year since the article was published.

I'd be happy to see another update on the system for it's first anniversary !

Thanks in advance

[dave11674]

hi

can any1 confirm
which other types of oil work well ?

ive heard baby oil does this ok too but not 100% sure about temps in baby oil ?!?!

also can any1 point me in the right direction as to where to buy any of teh said oils in the uk

im just itching to get my setup done :)

got a lovely 6.6 gal mirror backed tank ;)

dave11674@hotmail.com

thanks

dave

[PCC- Builder Dan]

Any relatively pure oil will work - people have done it with vegetable oil, even, although the brown looks gross. Baby oil is just mineral oil with a bit of perfume added - it should work fine.

[dave11674]

thanks for the reply dan

was leaning towards liquid parafin
somewhere in uk sells it at a reasonable price

let me know mate

thanks

dave

[jayh619]

I'm noob and I'm sorry if someone already asked this but... could you post another update on that computer? I want to see how long the computer can last like, does it still work even after the year 2007 since the last update on the site was December 4th, 2007 so does it still work even now? I'm thinking about trying this one day...:D

EDIT: also... do u think a powerless aquarium pumps could also do the job? just by using big hose attachment and then sinking it into the bottom and then having the plastic water hose move around your computer several times and putting the other end back into the computer would that work? I no it works when I replace my fish tank's water

[bcook8033]

I'm interested in an update on the durability of a system running like this too.

-----------------------------
CoNetrix (http://www.conetrix.com)

[PCC- Builder Dan]

I saw it just today, still in use as an office machine. The oil has started to get a bit cloudy (or maybe it's the plexi), but it's still running fine. I don't know any details, but I'm sure they could be gotten.

It's currently running with no pump, and no radiator. While it does get rather hot, it seems to run well. If you were going to pump the oil through an external radiator, I think you'd need a real pump to do the work.

[thegreatabbazaba]

Dan, when fitting the mobo tray into place, did you have to remove the light from the top? i took it out because it wouldn't close all the way. I'm going to mount a pc neon light under the tray.

[PCC- Builder Dan]

It's definitely not there any more - I'm not sure if it had to come out to get the tray to fit or if it's out simply because it wouldn't do any good. Jon actually did the build, maybe he'll remember.

[PCC-Jon]

Yep, we had to take out the light, and do a fair bit of cutting of the top black plastic piece.

[PCC-Jon]

I just posted an update, with new pictures at http://www.pugetsystems.com/submerged.php#update3

[tegrevboy]

THought i would throw this out there. A very cheap 3 row automatic transmission cooler, pump, and quiet 120 mm fan would work perfectly for cooling and still be almost noiseless.


OH YEA BTW thanks for the update guys been hanging on edge waiting to hear about the progress or result.

[deed02392]

I have been looking at this for about an hour now and was really disappointed to see the aquarium you used will cost over $160 just to ship to the UK! I was also unable to find it being sold within the UK. :( Being just a school kid I'm not going to be able to afford that shipping price. Does anyone know of an alternative aquarium I could get, here in the UK?

I'd also like to ask, what happened to that piece of acrylic you cut out??

I saw you glue it to the lid, but then when you slid the motherboard tray in it fitted straight through as if it wasn't there :confused:

Thanks in advance :)

[BobH]

I saw this system in person a couple weeks ago when I picked up my new system and it's really cool looking. The mineral oil looks so much like water that it looks like a fish tank with a computer in it. The bubbles really add to the whole fish tank effect. It's kind of like a 3D optical illusion where you're looking at it and still going "that's not possible" even though you're staring at it. ;)

I wonder if they could get some of those little plastic fish from the fake aquariams I've see. That would be really cool, if they didn't end up getting sucked into one of the fans or something...

[PCC- Builder Dan]

The acrylic has a hole cut in it large enough to slide the motherboard tray through. It acts as a support for the tray, as the backplate of the tray (which is now on top) is too large to fit through the hole.

Any aquarium that's large enough should work, although I would suggest you look for a one-piece molded plastic or acrylic tank. Although we haven't seen any of the rubber parts in ours fall apart, I would still worry about the sealer in a glass fish tank coming apart in the deep-fryer that is an oil-cooled PC.

[deed02392]

The acrylic has a hole cut in it large enough to slide the motherboard tray through. It acts as a support for the tray, as the backplate of the tray (which is now on top) is too large to fit through the hole.

Any aquarium that's large enough should work, although I would suggest you look for a one-piece molded plastic or acrylic tank. Although we haven't seen any of the rubber parts in ours fall apart, I would still worry about the sealer in a glass fish tank coming apart in the deep-fryer that is an oil-cooled PC.

Thanks for your reply, they would probably have been helpful, had my parents decided I could not go through with building an oil cooled PC. :mad: I understand now about that piece of acrylic, it was not a whole piece covering the gap entirely, but cut just enough to let the motherboard and gfx card slip though whilst the rest sat on it nicely? I suppose this is because the whole thing is not just sitting on the bottom of the aquarium, and you will want to keep the connectors above oil-level.

But yes, my parents are ... saying "oh what would happen if it fell over and all come flooding through the ceiling down into the front room. ... I wouldn't be so angry if they would at least give me a reasoned answer.

I can't wait till I move out.

Signed,
Know-it-all Teen :taunt

[yajresom]

Hey like thermodynamics. I was looking into how to increase the amount of cooling that the tank itself has. I you decided to replace the back panel with a piece of aluminum it would increase the cooling 229 times the original value (this has to do with the heat transfer coefficient of aluminum compared to glass). That is as long as the piece of aluminum is of the same thickness as the original piece of glass.
also the reason why your fans don't breakdown is to the amount of heat that the oil removes from the motor...
As your motor spins fast it creates a greater counter electromotive force(cmf). This is caused by generator action in a motor. The cmf acts like a resistor and slows current down. Current is what creates heat in any electrical system (heat= current squared times resistance). so as your motor slows down that heat created due the current in the motor goes up. normally this is bad, the insulation in the motor is only designed the withstand so much heat before it breaks down(this breakdown is what causes the motor to "fry"). However since the oil is many times greater at cooling the motor the insulation never overheats, and therefore never breaks down(the only downfall is the heat generated by the motor is also heating the oil).
I read some one else's posts to which they said put the bubble under the cpu(it may have been another component that was over heating) this may turnout poorly if the bubbles get caught any where. IF there is an air bubble that gets caught it will create a hot spot due to the lack of heat transfer that air can accomplish.

I know this is a bit long winded but... If you allow a path for circulation from the aluminum to the front of the tank you may be able to generate a thermal driving head. This will lead to a natural circulation that should keep things a bit cooler.
I hope this sheds some lite on things. Good luck on #2

[Owner132]

Could putting silicone gel at the ends of the wires for the hard drive prevent oil from wicking to the hard drive? I have solved all problems with my system but one. Has anyone found a solution to this? Also has anyone had problems with wicking to the hard drive? PM me if you have a definate solution to this problem.

[GuyFawkes]

http://picasaweb.google.com/fasand.words/OilyRaptorhttp://picasaweb.google.com/fasand.words/OilyRaptor

The result of SATA cable wicking.

[Owner132]

I can't access them, just tell me.

[PCC- Builder Dan]

It looks like a whole lot of oil got into the guts of the Raptor - are you sure that came across the SATA cables? I didn't think the interconnects between the PCB and the guts of the hard drive would allow that much seepage.

[PCC-Jon]

Was the hard drive lower than the oil tank? I wonder if we're not having the problem at all because our hard drive is above the tank.

[GuyFawkes]

Absolutely positive that all that oil wicked through the sata cable in 24 hours.

In that instance the hard drive was vertical with the power and data connections facing upwards, and above the level of the oil, so when the oil wicked through the SATA cable it had nowhere to go but run down and through the drive.

I did wonder if the drive breathing hole sucked it in when the drive cooled, but on stripping the drive it was quite clear that the mechanical joints where the electrical contacts pass through will also wick oil when the exterior parts get pooling oil.

Puget lay the hard drive flat, if they get any wicking it has nowhere to go except to drop off the end of the drive back into the tank.

Puget may not get any wicking, not all SATA cables wick, just some of the braided ones.

In hindsight, easy to cure, especially with the oil hardening issue, simply join two sata cables in series, or make up a union, the wicking cannot pass the joint, and you simply replace the immersed cable when it gets too hard to work with.

I could have tried HPA conformal coating to seal the joint at the mobo, but 20/20 hindsight is a great thing.

I'll get around to the mk III later this summer.

[Mania]

I've read several work logs about submersing pcs in oil, and I also read this entire thread (which was hardly informative; due to people asking easily answerable questions- an f.a.q would suffice for 60%)

I've had the equivalent of college chemistry and physics, so I get the most of the factors involved, but I still have some questions:
1: Isn't a glass aquarium most preferable due to a better heat flux than plastic etc(ignoring cost diff.)?
2: Wouldn't a closed system be alot better, as long as one has a radiator or equivalent? - due to the dust pollution

However, one can really ignore #2, since (heating and) cooling of oils will cause wax particles to be created- which one will also need to filter out, eventually..(see this (http://www.inspect-ny.com/heat/HeatingOilWaxing.htm)) PS: I'm not sure that heating won't turn the wax back into oil - so this may not be a problem..

Now, what I'm most uncertain about is this: does the wax particles in the oil work as emulsifier (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emulsify#Emulsifier)(therefore absorbing small ammounts of water)?

I might build one this summer, after being inspired by your awesome video :thumbsup.

[BobH]

I've had the equivalent of college chemistry and physics, so I get the most of the factors involved, but I still have some questions:
1: Isn't a glass aquarium most preferable due to a better heat flux than plastic etc(ignoring cost diff.)?

The answer to that one takes more engineering than Chemistry and Physics.

They didn't use a glass tank due to the concern of the oil de-grading the caulking used to seal the corners of of the glass tank. A one piece acrylic tank eliminated any concern of the seam seals deteriorating and leaking, since there are no seams.

As for the heat flux, did you take the varying thickness of the two materials into consideration? You'd have to do some measurements, but in general the wall thickness on an acrylic aquarium is thinner than the glass sides are, or at least that's what I seem to recall with the tanks I've worked with.

[tegrevboy]

Absolutely positive that all that oil wicked through the sata cable in 24 hours.

In that instance the hard drive was vertical with the power and data connections facing upwards, and above the level of the oil, so when the oil wicked through the SATA cable it had nowhere to go but run down and through the drive.

I did wonder if the drive breathing hole sucked it in when the drive cooled, but on stripping the drive it was quite clear that the mechanical joints where the electrical contacts pass through will also wick oil when the exterior parts get pooling oil.

Puget lay the hard drive flat, if they get any wicking it has nowhere to go except to drop off the end of the drive back into the tank.

Puget may not get any wicking, not all SATA cables wick, just some of the braided ones.

In hindsight, easy to cure, especially with the oil hardening issue, simply join two sata cables in series, or make up a union, the wicking cannot pass the joint, and you simply replace the immersed cable when it gets too hard to work with.

I could have tried HPA conformal coating to seal the joint at the mobo, but 20/20 hindsight is a great thing.

I'll get around to the mk III later this summer.


and they did not put their drive in a baggy as you have stated in your blog


First, let's recap what went wrong with the Mk1 and Mk2 versions.

1/ The motherboard should lie flat.
2/ The submerged cables harden, so it should have an interface between internal cables and external cables.
3/ The (SATA) cables wicked oil up the inside and killed the WD Raptor by filling the baggie it was immersed inside with oil.
4/ Pure convenction and radiation didn't disperse quite enough heat for my liking, though it never overheated.
5/ Once you immerse stuff in oil it gets messy working on it.
You dont' thing that maybe that was the problem? Couldn't it not have been the baggy that the HDD was sealed in?

[jace26]

Okay, so why do we think that the mineral oil will degrade the seals of a glass aquarium? The sealant on a glass aquarium is silicone, not plastic based. Do we have any evidence it will degrade in the oil? Since I'm working on a system to go in a 10-gal tank I'm pretty interested in knowing if there will be a problem.

Also, does anyone have any good ideas on pumps and radiator options? The mineral oil has pretty low viscosity so I'm wondering if an aquarium/pond pump designed for water would work? And several people have mentioned automotive radiators, I'd like to see some model numbers or links to potential radiators that would be cheaper than ones designed for water cooling PCs.

Has anyone had wicking on IDE cables? I'm using round IDE cables and I'm not sure how I would go about preventing wicking.

Jace

[BobH]

Okay, so why do we think that the mineral oil will degrade the seals of a glass aquarium? The sealant on a glass aquarium is silicone, not plastic based. Do we have any evidence it will degrade in the oil?

I seem to recall they said they were concerned about it possibly degrading the seams, not that they had positive proof that it would. Since the result of a failure would be a messy oil leak, and potential damage to the system, I'm guessing they decided not to test what would actually happen.

[GuyFawkes]

and they did not put their drive in a baggy as you have stated in your blog


You dont' thing that maybe that was the problem? Couldn't it not have been the baggy that the HDD was sealed in?

Nope, the bags were oil tight, first thing I did was test a ziplock bag by filling it with paraffin oil and sitting it on the kitchen window ledge for a month.

In any event the raptor didn't ingest the paraffin oil by breathing through the vent, it ingested it through the interconnects at the top of the drive, the drive wasn't submerged in a bag of oil as it were.

Easy way to test if a sata cable (or any cable) wicks is sit two glasses side by side, fill one with oil, drape cable between the two glasses, walk away and wait.

When I did this I found "quality" sata cables wicked, including those supplied as standard in abit mobo boxes, but all the ones that didn't were ultra cheapo ones.

[Locke]

I think what tegrevboy was getting at is that the drive may have failed due to being sealed up, not necessarily the oil.

I don't know offhand the operational pressure required for a Raptor, but if you had accidentially gone outside the tolerance, you may have just choked the drive to death.

[stips]

I'm curious how you connected your hard drives to the mobo Guy. To the top of the mobo? Or actually submerged in the oil via the connectors on the mobo itself? It looks like puget connects their hd via one of the slots which isnt submerged in the oil. Puget suggested a connector like that would prevent the oil from traveling along the 'second' cable but in this case I'd guess they are effectively using the entire back of the mobo as the 'first cable' and the cable thats currently plugged into their hd as the second one. Walla, no oil travel since the cable never actually touches the oil.

[PCC-Jon]

We're using a SATA PCI bay bracket (http://www.pugetsystems.com/store/item.php?cat=Accessories&id=3684&com=d41d8cd9&que=SATA), and the additional connection point might be exactly what's preventing wicking over the SATA cable.

[GuyFawkes]

I think what tegrevboy was getting at is that the drive may have failed due to being sealed up, not necessarily the oil.

I don't know offhand the operational pressure required for a Raptor, but if you had accidentially gone outside the tolerance, you may have just choked the drive to death.

Bag wasn't sealed.

[GuyFawkes]

I'm curious how you connected your hard drives to the mobo Guy. To the top of the mobo? Or actually submerged in the oil via the connectors on the mobo itself? It looks like puget connects their hd via one of the slots which isnt submerged in the oil. Puget suggested a connector like that would prevent the oil from traveling along the 'second' cable but in this case I'd guess they are effectively using the entire back of the mobo as the 'first cable' and the cable thats currently plugged into their hd as the second one. Walla, no oil travel since the cable never actually touches the oil.

yes, I connected to the on (mobo) board sata connectors while puget use a break out expansion card.

if the ends of the sata cable aren't in the oil it cannot wick.

like I say, working (amongst other projects) on the mk3

[Locke]

Bag wasn't sealed.

I am trying to picture this in my head, so please let me know if I am way off base here.

The HDD was in a bag, that was not sealed, and it was lowered into the mineral/parrafin oil in a fashion where the oil was not high enough to pour into the top if the bag, correct?

If that is the case, wouldn't the surrounding oil force almost all the air out of the bag in the places it was submerged?

Try this by putting a plastic ziploc bag on your hand, and then putting it in a filled sink. The bag clings to your skin as if it's vacuum sealed, because the air is being forced out by the surrounding, denser liquid.

Wouldn't this still choke the HDD by covering the air intake?

This would be like saying a child cannot choke to death in a plastic bag unless it is sealed up. We know this is not true.

Again, if I am visualizing this incorrectly, let me know, my aim is not to offend.

[jace26]

Sweet, looks like the SATA bracket will solve my potential wicking problems!

Question for PCC-Jon, what kind of aquarium rocks did y'all use and what steps did you take to prepare them for the tank?

Jace

[PCC-Jon]

We used just regular aquarium rocks, and we washed and dried them before putting them in the tank (to keep the little particles from floating around).

[cercle]

Pugets'team/Hi, cercle here ,I came from spcrs'site ,looking for silent ideas .Your project is/was a good advertisement on puget .But some people are really involved into it,so do I!I am thinking of silencing a watercooling ( cpu+gpu+northbridge+southbridge+ anything that would be unable to withstand the hot oil) by diping pump,mazes.. into your oil system.Oil stops electricity and changes sound too: diping a "silent" pump into oil would silence it more and moreover, it would protect from water cooling leaks !?Am I right ? I don't want to use a watercooling otherwise :it's noisier than aircooling and deadly.That's an unknown side effect one may add ??Anyone to confirm/break my theory?!

[REFreak]

Hi, I've read the whole thread and i have a couple of questions.

1) Somebody said that TV tuner cards have issues while been submerged in oil. I wonder if this happens with all kind of cards like dvb-t or dvb-s tuners or just with analogic cards. Otherwise i would like to know if it's possible solve this problem placing a little plastic box above the tunner and sealing it to the card with epoxy, silicone o something similar. In that case, which could be the best sealant?

2) I live in Spain and after more than 1 month looking for it I'm almost completely sure that there is no product in the whole Europe similar to the STE's Crystal Plus 70T mineral oil. Some guys from UK have used parafine oil but i want to avoid it if possible because is flammable at low temperature. What do you think about naftenic oil, silicone oil or vaseline oil?

[FranklinMaia]

Hi, guys i am really concerned about sealing the processor , is it realy necessary?I've read somewhere that if you dont you will generate hot spots that wont circulate ... So is it true? Did you guys really sealed yours or not?


Thanks in advance

[GuyFawkes]

Hi, I've read the whole thread and i have a couple of questions.


2) I live in Spain and after more than 1 month looking for it I'm almost completely sure that there is no product in the whole Europe similar to the STE's Crystal Plus 70T mineral oil. Some guys from UK have used parafine oil but i want to avoid it if possible because is flammable at low temperature. What do you think about naftenic oil, silicone oil or vaseline oil?

You may be completely sure, but you are completely wrong, this is the trouble with Googling everything, there is a supplier of liquid paraffin oil, veterinary, for giving to horses, which is EXACTLY what you want, 10 minutes away from here, but Google can't find one in the entire UK, unless I go out, look at the actual cans, and type the company name into Google.

I actually DID flammability experiments with paraffin oil, yes, it can be made to burn, but by the time it burns readily you are so far outside the envelope of a working oil cooled PC it doesn't matter.

For example, the only easy way to ignite it is grab an ATX psu, dip it in oil, pull it out and let the excess drain so everything is covered in and insulated by a layer or oil, cut the fans, and connect it to a heavy load so it cooks, if you can get the psu so hot it dies and lets the magic smoke out it may ignite the oil covering it, maybe.... immersed this cannot happen... combustion can only happen at the interface between oil and air, which is why puget putting air bubbles in the tank is a bad idea, high voltage switched are immersed in oil, and they DO arc when opening and closing, but lacking air an immersed arc just quenches.

HTH etc

[REFreak]

You may be completely sure, but you are completely wrong, this is the trouble with Googling everything, there is a supplier of liquid paraffin oil, veterinary, for giving to horses, which is EXACTLY what you wantSorry but no. Paraffin oil is NOT exactly what i want, THIS (http://www.steoil.com/catalog.asp?productgroup=70t) is EXACTLY what i want and paraffin oil is not the same. You can be sure google is not the only place where i searched. I founded faraffin oil in the first 5 minutes of search but this wasn't what i was searching for. I've been visiting all the chemical industries of my area, phoning almost all in my country and e-mailing some in UK, France and Germany.


I actually DID flammability experiments with paraffinYes, i already read all of your blog entries (https://surfbaud.dyndns.org/sites/blog/index.php?/categories/15-Liquid-cool-PC/P1.html) about oil liquid cooling and i have to thank you for your great job. I also read your flammability experiments and i agree with you that there is a very low risk of ignition in normal circumstances but i must say that "very low risk" is not enough for me. Perhaps i finally use faraffin oil if i'm not able to find something better but i want to discard all the alternatives before and have faraffin oil as a last option, thanks. That's why i'm asking about naftenic oil, silicone oil or vaseline oil.

Anyway the most interesting question for me now is that concerned to dvt-t and dvb-s tunner cards. Use USB cards is not an option for me, i already have one PCI card and there is no USB version of another card i want to buy. (HAUPPAUGE WINTV HVR 4000)

[GuyFawkes]

Sorry but no. Paraffin oil is NOT exactly what i want, THIS (http://www.steoil.com/catalog.asp?productgroup=70t) is EXACTLY what i want and paraffin oil is not the same. You can be sure google is not the only place where i searched. I founded faraffin oil in the first 5 minutes of search but this wasn't what i was searching for. I've been visiting all the chemical industries of my area, phoning almost all in my country and e-mailing some in UK, France and Germany.

Dude, STE Crystal __IS__ the same thing, unless you think a brand name and marketing is significant, but it isn't chemically....

Paraffin oil is a crystal clear, colourless, odourless, tasteless technical and food grade white mineral oil

It is specifically used for everything they list, wood treatments, candle making, lamp oil (no smutting), cosmetics, health and beauty, you name it.

If you drink it it will clean your bowels out, but it will all pass through you as it is inert and indigestable.

Now if you WANT to pay twice the price per litre for a brand name and all that, that is up to you, but there are many readers of these forums and it would be wrong to mislead them by saying that STE Crystal and Paraffin Oil as can be bought from a farmers supply for giving to horses for a fraction of the price is different, it isn't.

Please do not confuse "paraffin oil" / "liquid paraffin" / "paraffin"

paraffin = kerosene, it stinks and burns readily and is extremely harmful if ingested etc.

[REFreak]

Dude, STE Crystal __IS__ the same thing, unless you think a brand name and marketing is significant, but it isn't chemically.... Sorry but you're exactly wrong. The chemistry of that mineral compounds is very complex. Very often they are formed of thousands of different hydrocarbonic molecules. Paraffin oil is made only of alkane hydrocarbons and STE's Crystal Plus 70T have more quantities of heavier molecules. They are very similar but not chemically equal.


Paraffin oil is a crystal clear, colourless, odourless, tasteless technical and food grade white mineral oilYes, paraffin oil have ALSO this properties because its chemical composition is similar to STE's Crystal Plus 70T but there is an important difference between them. Paraffin oil burns at room temperature and STE's Crystal Plus 70T burns only from 120ºC in advance.


If you drink it it will clean your bowels out, but it will all pass through you as it is inert and indigestable.Yes, i know, that's why it's also (as STE's Crystal Plus 70T) used as laxative.


Now if you WANT to pay twice the price per litre for a brand name and all that, that is up to you,I don't want to pay more but STE's Crystal Plus 70T is not very expensive in the US ($83.40 for 5 gallons). In fact here in Spain paraffin oil is more expensive than that (100€ for 25Lt). Anyway i don't want it for its "brand name", i want it (or something similar) because is NOT FLAMMABLE AT ROOM TEMPERATURE.

[cercle]

To REFreak ,HI cercle from France .About tv,radio tuner ,the radio wave don't go through water neither oil and also our pc boxes.It stop waves,Michael Faraday discovered that fact centuries ago ,it is called from my french translated "box of faraday",let's say put a radio inside of you pc box then turn it on ,close the box ,you should hear a weak signal, the closed metal make the FM electromagnetic wave turn around as it is closed, it don't go inside .Plastic pc boxes are not guaranteed because they don't stop radio waves,you may receive signals from other electronics devices.So, about your tuner ,you must keep antenna out of oil!:pA question is about plastic on this thread.Read further.:thumbsup

[cercle]

To PCC Jon ,hi I have seen your test ,it gave me an idea : secure watercooling from shortcir cuit by dipping it into oil .I own a 24 lcd screen ,I play , so......The oil would help me to feel secure, I like to forget the tool and concentrate on what think ,feel. In that way,the oil weakness about heat would be reduced ,it's advantages maximized, sound of the water pump shifted to low tones....I hope you will manage to read my broken english,a little rusty:DCould you test a watercooling under oil?You may have some old watercooling system around you,it would help me and show something new about oil submerged...You may answer me on the thread,I'll be around ...

[REFreak]

Thanks for your answer cercle.

About tv,radio tuner ,the radio wave don't go through water neither oil ... you must keep antenna out of oil!Don't worry. Of course in pci cards the antenna connector will be placed in the top of the aquarium, above the max level of oil.


question is about plastic on this thread.Read further.:thumbsupI've read all the thread and didn't see any notice of tunners isolated from oil with plastic boxes. The tunner of the card is a metalic box where is placed the antenna conector as you can see for example here (http://www.esprinet.com/Files/Schede_HW/1AM_UV_16048_AV-TDTPCI_BIG.JPG)
I'm thinking also in covering all the surface of the tunner with a layer of epoxy to isolate it from the oil. I'm wondering if the tuner will work under this conditions and if epoxy will perform well against mineral oil (or parafine oil).

[cercle]

To REFreak,cercle, "plastic"?:yes I missed something ,i guess ,sorry.About oil of any kind ,and tuner :oil will reduce a weak contact .So plug your pci card and bolt it to the piece of plexiglas you use for motherboard.Puget added a piece of plastic in order to attach the motherboard above the fishtank,use it to attach the daughterboards too as in a normal pc box, your contacts should be at their best.My project is about watercooling,I am thinking of protecting the computer from shortcircuit in case of a water leak.Oil may keep water away from my electronic devices.I hope they will test my idea,I fear a over heat due to oil and/ or chemical reaction on water coolling plastic element?Oil, you said ,some are neutral, I mean neither acid nor basic,so they won't attack any plastic gum...?:rolleyes:

[DarkAngel]

:confused:Yea im actually trying to build my own submerged pc but when it came to the oil they told me that there were many kinds of mineral oil so wich type to choose? dont wanna damage any parts

[BrainEater]

:D :D

Some of you probably know me.I thought I'd stop by and say hello , and kudos to my fellow submersion enthusiasts.

I read through this post , And I have some insights I'd like to share.

-Chemical degradation of plastics and rubbers ; Effects on submerged components.....

Regardless of whether the submersion fluid is mineral oil or an aromatic ester like Midel7131 , it will attack the plastics and rubbers of all the submerged components.Some more than others.
PCC Jon you've already noticed this on your cables from what I've read.

Here's some steps that can be taken to avoid this.
-Seal the electrolytic capacitors to the mobo with a silicone based sealant.The rubber endcaps don't really like oils....
-Wires can be sealed in this manner as well.
-If you know what fluid you are using , you can also have custom cabling made ,using compatible plastics.

-------

I've noticed a post about 'wicking' of oil through wires.This can definitely be an issue especially if the attached device is 'lower' (physically) than the fluid level.Think syphon.

If you need to prevent this , there is a method.You can 'vacuum impregnate' the cables with a silicone sealant.

------

I'm actually in the process of rebuilding the thinktank , in a effort to reach my initial design goals.( good overclocking)...

I'll be running pumped anhydrous isopropanol @ -60 to -100 c.

------

If I can be of any help regarding submersion stuff please let me know.

:D

[PCC-Jon]

'vacuum impregnate' is a great idea!

[FranklinMaia]

:D :D


I'll be running pumped anhydrous isopropanol @ -60 to -100 c.



:D


wtf is #$¨¨&$% isopropanol? is it at -60 to/or -100 celcius? Guy this is really cool, wont just the "regular" oil the pudget guys used be enought for overclock?that plus a good radiador +pump

[BrainEater]

Thx PCC Jon

My Vacuum pump is actually getting serviced right now , but I can post some pics of the process when I get it back.

---------

Isopropyl alcohol , is one of a very short list of chemicals thats actually fully compatible with electronic components.When I dissasembled my first submersion rig (the thinktank) I used boiling Isopropanol to clean off the oil.

I don't know any exact temps , it isnt running yet : - 60c to -100c is a guess.

The base coolant is going to be dry ice.(-78.5 c) .The cooling can be potentially increased by the process of solvent evaporation as I'm designing this into the rig as well.

-----

So no , "regular oil" just won't do it....besides , been there , done that.

:D

[cercle]

Braineater,PccJon,HI
So,It is foolish to dip my watercooled pc into oil?No oil or anything non corrosive,toxic/explosive liquid?
This plus a strong fishtank,I could build something even better than puget's:colored watercooling liquid,let's say red+waterbloc idem+bubbles !of course!The fluo pcs would be outfashioned!!!+It has a purpose:keep water away+enjoy a little bit more the parts!:third

[davea0511]

He he he ... never fails to amaze me when people propose drowning perfectly healthy fish in mineral oil.
:D

You could however put in those fake fish from one of those fake fish like are in here: http://www.amazon.com/Fake-Artificial-Aquarium-Fish-Tank/dp/B000KB95R8/ref=tag_tdp_sv_edpp_i but I'm guessing they'd all fall to the bottom in mineral oil.
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51HiwdJ0inL._SS400_.jpg
You could however suspend them on fishing line which should be invisible. Maybe you could drill a hole and stuff a couple styrofoam balls in each fish to get the right buoyancy.

[davea0511]

Another thing I thought of for cooling this thing ... pipe the oil through one of those artsy-fartsy indoor waterfalls (except it would be a oil-falls).

That combined with the buoyant or suspended fake fish - you'd have a very very "cool: setup in more ways than one, with the added perk of being relaxing - as all oil falls seem to be.
:)

[marshall]

Another thing I thought of for cooling this thing ... pipe the oil through one of those artsy-fartsy indoor waterfalls (except it would be a oil-falls).

That combined with the buoyant or suspended fake fish - you'd have a very very "cool: setup in more ways than one, with the added perk of being relaxing - as all oil falls seem to be.
:)

i dunno about the fish but the oil fall thing would be a great addition to it nice idea.:)

[Pokey89]

I think this is a cool idea. I have an old desktop in my closet that im going to try it on with. I had one question tho. I was noticeing that not everything was submerged, but cant tell what it is from the pictures and videos. So my question is. What can NOT be sumberged or shouldnt?

[marshall]

I think this is a cool idea. I have an old desktop in my closet that im going to try it on with. I had one question tho. I was noticeing that not everything was submerged, but cant tell what it is from the pictures and videos. So my question is. What can NOT be sumberged or shouldnt?

don't submerge hard drives or disk drives oil will get in them and mess them up.

[dada]

So, how is "version two" ? We still waiting.

[capslock118]

Hi,

For all those who use the mineral oil for cooling and for the folks at puget systems.

I have read everywhere, including here, that the oil seeps through wires - the common example being oil eventually dripping out of a mouse.

Ok thats fair, I can easily get a wireless mouse and keyboard.

BUT!.....

Can anyone tell me their experience, any problems arising, etc over oil seeping through:
-Power supply wire
-SATA (or PATA or SCSI) wire to hard drives / cd roms / dvd roms (would hate to see oil touching a hard drive etc)
-Monitor cable
-Power supply wires from power supply to peripherals such as hard drive/cd-rom/dvd rom/ floppy (yes, i still use one on rare occasions.
-USB cables to connect flash cards.

Has anyone experience problems with oil heading its way through a power supply wire and into say a surge protector? what about the hard drive wires?

Basically, if you can tell me what to look out for in the above areas I would greatly appreciate it

-Joel

[PCC-Jon]

So, how is "version two" ? We still waiting.

Version two is up and running! Teaser pic below. We'll have full pictures and a writeup in the next few days.

[PCC-Jon]

Can anyone tell me their experience, any problems arising, etc over oil seeping through:
-Power supply wire
-SATA (or PATA or SCSI) wire to hard drives / cd roms / dvd roms (would hate to see oil touching a hard drive etc)
-Monitor cable
-Power supply wires from power supply to peripherals such as hard drive/cd-rom/dvd rom/ floppy (yes, i still use one on rare occasions.
-USB cables to connect flash cards.


As long as the part is higher than the computer, then you won't get wicking. So, if you have the hard drive on top of the aquarium, it won't wick up the SATA cable. The main wicking we've seen is with USB -- power and DVI hasn't given us much trouble.

In version 2, we have no cables actually going into the oil -- we have connectors at the top of the tank, providing a break in suction that should stop the wicking. More details to come.

[eXce!!eNt]

I'm having difficulty understanding the acrylic panel and how it is all implemented into the project. If the mobo tray is mounted to it, don't you have to pull it out to pour the mineral oil in? Or did you drill a hole so you could funnel it in then plug the hole?

Well if your version 2 is being released soon, I'll hold off on this project. I was going to recreate what you guys did, but if it's only a matter of days til version 2 I can wait.


Hopefully you go into a little more depth as to how you use and install the acrylic panel because I'm quite confused.

[davea0511]

Hi,

For all those who use the mineral oil for cooling and for the folks at puget systems.

I have read everywhere, including here, that the oil seeps through wires - the common example being oil eventually dripping out of a mouse.

Ok thats fair, I can easily get a wireless mouse and keyboard.

BUT!.....

Can anyone tell me their experience, any problems arising, etc over oil seeping through:
-Power supply wire
-SATA (or PATA or SCSI) wire to hard drives / cd roms / dvd roms (would hate to see oil touching a hard drive etc)
-Monitor cable
-Power supply wires from power supply to peripherals such as hard drive/cd-rom/dvd rom/ floppy (yes, i still use one on rare occasions.
-USB cables to connect flash cards.

Has anyone experience problems with oil heading its way through a power supply wire and into say a surge protector? what about the hard drive wires?

Basically, if you can tell me what to look out for in the above areas I would greatly appreciate it

-Joel

The oil wicks through by capillary action. What that means is that over a very long period it will actually tavel upwards, but the capillary action stops at the point that there aren't any channels that decrease the surface energy required to overcome gravity. In other words, yes it will wick all the way up to your hard drives, but it will go no further than the contact points where the wires connect to the PCB, and thus will never damage your drives.

Mineral Oil in your Monitor, flash cards, power supplies won't hurt them at all. Technically speaking you could fill an LCD monitor with mineral oil I believe, and have it still work as normal. I've thought about taking advantage of this fact to make a scuba-diving compatible computer or use in salt water. In that case it's probably better to use a heavy oil though.

[davea0511]

Version two is up and running! Teaser pic below. We'll have full pictures and a writeup in the next few days.

Excellent! Are my eyes deceiving me or did you drop some fake fish in there?

[neogeo0823]

I've been watching this project since it's creation and I'm extremely impressed and anxious to try building one for myself. However, I've put off the project since i've heard that there will be a version 2 coming soon. Is there any way we could get an estimate on when the new writeup will be done and viewable? I've got all the parts except for the aquarium and the oil sitting in my closet, waiting to be finished.

[GEEK4LIF3]

I have just found out about this project about a week ago. It is sad because it is such a cool project that I would have liked to watch develop. I have been considering making one myself since I first saw it. Now my only problem is deciding on what type of liquid to use. I know mineral oil will work, obviously, but I thought about using full synthetic motor oil or antifreeze. I haven't yet tested the conductivity of these, but the only one that I am not sure about is the antifreeze. I would like to use that because of the sweet green color, I think that it would look great with a few LEDs. If the antifreeze works, my plan is to use the radiator from one of the many busted cars we own. (I know it doesn't leak though) If this were to work, it would have outrageous amounts of surface area for cooling it. The only thing is that I don't know if motor oil is thin enough to pump through it. I changed the oil in my car this morning, and it looks like it is pretty thin. The new stuff is, the black garbage that came out of my car wouldn't be nearly as attractive as the nice caramel color of the fresh stuff. My theory behind this radiator, I think is obvious, but if it can keep a car at under 250 degrees while there are hundreds of explosions per minute, I wonder what it could do to something that ran at much lower temps. The only flaw that I see with it is that the radiator is kinda big. and it will slice your fingers up like it was nothing, so there would have to be something over it that would prevent this. Oh, and both of these fluids are twice the cost of the mineral oil, meh, whatever.

[neogeo0823]

Honestly, that sounds like a lot of work for little gain. If you want the cool green color of antifreeze, why not just use some green food coloring in the mineral oil? As for the car radiator, while it would be interesting to be able to say "yeah, I cool my computer the same way you cool your car", I'm pretty sure that you could find a nice, small radiator made out materials that aren't as sharp and slicey.

[slash007]

if you keep all the cables up you should be fine with the oil seeping right? so put your rig on the ground and everything else higher including the power supply cable?

something else could you use baby oil? i mean it's a mineral oil and it also smells nice xD or would the extra things they put in there harm your pc?

sorry for my bad english i'm dutch =)

[Ruffy]

Hello. ive seen this oil cooled done two years ago and knew it would work. some say BS but if you know about the oil and know what it can do. yes it works. so i know it works. but i need a little more info then is showen.

Question#1
Can i get this oil at a lower price? and where? also can i find this in a local store like Wal Mart? if so name and make of oil

Question#2
It was never stated hat on this site they didnt use silicon around the CPU. Has it been tryed with a high preformance PC without the silicon? If so then how did it work? what was the temp? did it screw up anything? This is the only question that is keeping me back from doing this.....

Question#3
Is this better then a really good water cooled system? Im asking because i am a master at custome water cooled systems and know what they can do.

Question#4
I see they have been using air bubbles in some systems. And this is causing foam problems. The reason im posting this question is because why not take the bubble system out and get like a high powered refrigerator fan (Smaller fan to fit in nice!!!) to circulate the oil at a higher speed for items to be cooler at all times.

[Drinksalot]

Ruffy,

1.check online for mineral oil i found it to be cheaper but you also have to pay shipping. i live in Alaska so the cheapest option for me was Wal-mart. ive seen people use baby oil per gallon it is cheaper than pure mineral oil. i used pure mineral oil.

2.i have a phenom 9950 OC'd to 3.1 ghz stable i did not use silicon anywhere on any component everything works fine. my CPU temp is 45C idle full load it is 53C. ambient temperature is 40C. i changed out a 9600 for the 9950 and when i removed the CPU only about 1/2 of the pins had oil around them.

3.I think water system would be just as efficient as oil and much less of a hassle.

4. i had my pump suck in an air bubble and it turned it into a mist of bubbles in the tank, no foam. however it took a few days for the bubbles to clear up. the bubbles let me see how the oil flowed through my tank and with just CPU, PSU, and GPU fans it circulates fairly quickly and evenly. i have a very high CFM CPU heatsink i figured it will be silent so get the strongest/loudest.



My computer is cooled through a car transmission radiator with a 120mm fan on it sitting outside (in Alaska) so my temps may be cooler than others. i had to add a 2nd pump because the oil got too cold in the radiator and got too thick.



to slash007:

my oil is about 1.5 inches from the top and my hard drives are lower than the height of the oil as well as the power cord. i do not get any oil seeping through. i used brackets on the back of the MB tray to like Puget used to prevent seepage. my computer has been running in oil 24/7 for about 3 months and no oil outside of the tank so far.

[PCC-Jon]

We've posted an update with our version two system! Check it out at http://www.pugetsystems.com/submerged.php#update4

Please let me know if you have questions about it -- I'll use your feedback here to update the page to make it most useful to everyone.

[neogeo0823]

I do have a few things I'd like to see cleared up.

I would like to see more detail on exactly what was changed/improved to solve the wicking problem. You mentioned connectors, but it's not very obvious(to me, anyways) what was changed. Was it just the power cord that had a problem with wicking, or were there other cords that did this as well?

Also, how important was the radiator for this build? Would the computer run decently without it? Would you recommend running it without the radiator? I ask because I hadn't figured in the radiator when calculating the initial cost of the project.

Where/how can I go about getting an acrylic motherboard tray?

[josh4bball]

I am currently considering building myself a project very similar to what you guys have done though I put my planning on hold when I saw that you guys were come out with a version 2. So I was wondering if you could provide some more detailed instructions on exactly what changed this time around (Like you did when building the first version).

[PCC-Jon]

I would like to see more detail on exactly what was changed/improved to solve the wicking problem. You mentioned connectors, but it's not very obvious(to me, anyways) what was changed. Was it just the power cord that had a problem with wicking, or were there other cords that did this as well?

The main cord that wicked oil was the power cord, because we ran it from the wall, directly down into the oil, plugged into the power supply. With version two, there is an actual power socket at the top of the tank. We plug the cord from the wall into this socket, then a second cable runs the power down into the oil, plugged into the power supply. By providing this break with the socket, we're breaking the "suction" that syphoned the oil in version one.


Also, how important was the radiator for this build? Would the computer run decently without it? Would you recommend running it without the radiator? I ask because I hadn't figured in the radiator when calculating the initial cost of the project,

I definitely would not. The version one computer is what I'd consider the limit of what you can do without a radiator. A E8500 CPU and 9800GT video card is about what I'd consider as high as you should go without a radiator. The acrylic is an insulator, and just isn't about to radiate the heat quick enough for anything hotter. But, you can always try it! It takes a good 12 hours to get up to temperature, so you'll have plenty of time to watch and see.


Where/how can I go about getting an acrylic motherboard tray?

This addresses josh4bball's question as well: I have one more post I'm working on that will address those questions! Look for it on Thursday, or Friday at the lastest.

[Eraser]

Hey,

I have a question to this projekt. You put a clear silicon around the CPU to safe the contacts - right?
Is this necessary? For me it does not look so.

Otherwise it is a great projekt - but all my friends asked how to change something on this system - the oil will disturb by the work.

And my third question: Does anybody know a fluid wich makes a efekt like a Lavalamp? That would be a very nice effekt.

So far,
Eraser

PS: If my english is too bad - please take it with a smile ;)

[dada]

Hi. Pictures from Invex 2008. They used regular HDD :)

http://www.zive.cz/ShowArticleImages.aspx?id_file=467845106&article=143953

http://www.zive.cz/ShowArticleImages.aspx?id_file=442578797&article=143953

[coldtags]

duuudes that is so sick!!! what is the brand and model of that radiator in version 2 with the fans and i cant find a CPU heatsink freezer 7 that looks like that one, i found some but none look just like that one they dont have the nudge. one more question. does PSU power matter? cause i am on a 800 watt PSU.

[PCC-Jon]

coldtags:

The radiator is a "Magicool Xtreme", and the Freezer7 really shouldn't be hard to find. We even sell them at http://www.pugetsystems.com/store/item.php?cat=CPU+Cooling&id=4119&com=d41d8cd9&que= . However, in version two, we're not using a Freezer7, we're using a XIGMATEK HDT-S1283

The PSU power you need depends on your hardware. However, I've personally found that the oil gives the PSU the ability to handle a lot more than you'd expect of it in air. The oil keeps everything nice and cool. In version one, we're using a 300W, and in version two, we're using a 550W.

[Shivers]

I've got a SSD (OCZ Core2 128GB) in my mieral oil rig too... seems like we both had the same idea (except I'm waiting for the i7's to be released to finish mine). A couple of parts that I added may have been useful in your design;

* Delrin Vandal Power Switch link (http://www.performance-pcs.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=22163) - This power switch looks great in blue, and fits perfectly in the fishtank hole at the top, that was previously used for the light.
* Ext. Molex Connectors link (http://www.ncix.com/products/index.php?sku=29342) - I noticed you fans' power cables do not go back to the case. With this bracket, they can draw power, without the fear of drawing some oil too.

And now for a question ... what power supply did you guys use? I'm going to be doing an SLI of 2xGT212 (when they come out), so I went with a Corsair HX1000W, but it's bloody huge, even with the housing removed. I woulda love to have a powerful & tiny one. (btw, yes, 1000W is overkill for my rig ... I orignally planned on having 8x HDs draw power from it to, and house them behind the tank ... then I realized it makes way more sense to build a seperate NAS rig, so I'm left with a tank for a power supply).

[PCC-Jon]

Thanks for the post, Shivers!

Yep, I'm with you. We're not using that exact switch and molex adapter, but we're now doing the same thing. We're actually using an eSATA bracket that has a molex connector.

We used a Corsair 550W. We took apart nearly every model of power supply we carry, and it was the most compact and attractive without the housing. Not modular though -- we actually cut and covered the excess cables to get rid of their bulk.

[Shivers]

Ah, thanks for letting me know ... it's hard to know how big a power supply is for those of us who don't work at a computer store :] I got a beautiful Zalman ZM-MFC2, so once my rig is done (and before adding in the oil), I can see just how much juice I'm actually using, and consider downgrading the psu.
You guys have done a great job with this, really pushing things forward, and it's led to great fun, and a (soon to be) great system for me personally. Wish I could come visit you guys, and see your rig, but it'd be a bit of an extended road trip from Montreal! I'd love to see a complete part list for v.2 somewhere. I'll happily post mine in a bit, with links to where I got each of the parts, for anyone else looking to make one.

[coldtags]

well i have an AMD so ill get the freezer 64. you think a pyramid shaped acrylic case will work the same? when it comes to spreading heat.

[Shivers]

Does anybody know a fluid wich makes a efekt like a Lavalamp? That would be a very nice effekt.

There's many reasons why this wouldn't work, but, basically, it's wax that gets heated from a solid (where it sinks) to a liquid (where it floats), and then is cooled again to a solid (so it sinks again). You need a very direct heatsource for this to work, and that's simply not going to happen with this sort of rig. Also, it's meant to run around 22°C, but even a well cooled mineral oil computer runs above 40°C, so you'll fail there too. Check here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lava_lamps) for more details.
(It is a nice idea though)

[KCE]

Very interesting!

I have an idea:

Since the mineral oil is in contact more with the case (or tank) this means more conductivity, or heat transfer from the liquid->case->air. So I think you can improve the cooling, get closer to ambient temperature (sub-ambient not possible since since heat always diffuses from hot to cold; at best ambient temp ideally), or even without the pump/radiator (I prefer silent solutions - silent yet sufficient :p), by placing it in a metal case, preferably thin material, and either copper or non-anodized aluminum or even steel, all non-colored/painted;

However one thing I'm not sure about is whether the metal case could affect the electronics somehow...please check that first with someone knowledgeable. If it does then I guess ignore this post lol

This "more direct contact" is also why the temps are lower with fluid vs air, even without the pump vs fanned air. Water @20C is about 24x better at conducting heat than air. And in general solids conduct heat better than liquid which conducts better than gas (e.g. air). Metals, for example, aluminum conducts heat almost 400x better than water (at STP). So I think the plastic container you're using, is also pretty poor. Technically, thermal conductivity changes with temperature but I think in this case it's not so significant. Ideally the container should have a high heat capacity and a high thermal conductivity.

Aluminum is ideal because it has about 1/4th the heat capacity of water but high thermal conductivity, but the problem is when it is anodized or painted which reduces the thermal conductivity, thus "pure aluminum" and no paint - good balance between capacity and conductivity. Also pretty strong yet lightweight - good as a case.

Water conducts heat 2.5x better than mineral oil, which isn't as great as metal and the heat capacity of water is around 4x greater than mineral oil.

So instead of having to pump the water to the radiator, make the case the radiator. Another thing I think could help is also a smaller/closer space case is better, since the heat doesn't have to travel so far to reach the enivronment.

Faster you "pump" out the heat, the cooler it gets, but at the same time the hotter the environment gets (room) especially without A/C lol (conservation of energy - that heat has to go somewhere). I could be wrong on this but I think once you "pump" out more heat than the system can generate, that is when you get sub-ambient temperatures. Without an active "pump" (e.g. phase-change cooling, TEC) you can only rely on the properties of the material to output heat.

The way I see it:
cpu/comp -> liquid -> case -> air

The cpu uses metal/silicon/copper heatsink, etc so it already has high conductivity but lower heat capacity, transferring heat rapidly. Now you want the liquid to be able to hold more heat, but maintain high conductivity so in a way it can store that rapidly-transferred heat from the cpu, while at the same time transferring it to the case. And then the case should have a high thermal conductivity to transfer the heat from the liquid to the air, and to some degree higher heat capacity, as air is a poor thermal conductor. And one more thing is the larger the volume, the more it can hold; and the larger the surface area, the faster heat can escape - e.g. heatsinks

Probably the limiting factor would be the liquid, as air has a large volume (if the comp is in a larger room - takes longer to heat up) and circulates.

Just an idea...

Oh and in case I got any of the previous wrong, please correct me.

:eek:

[Shivers]

Well some of the problems with that are where do you get a nice looking water/oil-tight stainless aluminum case. Also, you'd be losing the beautiful aethetic value of a simply see-through fishtank. I mean, if you're going simply for function, there are easier ways.

[KCE]

I guess better leave my post to the die-hard computer modders :p

[josh4bball]

I was wondering why it was that both version one and two have roughly the same tempurature graphs (when the radiator is attached), is it because oil just can not be made any cooler the approimate 45 degrees?

[PCC-Jon]

The second version has much higher end hardware, but has better cooling with the radiator, so they somewhat cancel out and create similar temperatures.

[josh4bball]

Yes I know that version 2 has more high end hardware so it is generating more heat but if you look at version 1 with the radiator the tempratures are roughly the same. So why is it then that version 1 with the radiator is only a few degrees cooler (if any) then version 2, since along the lines of your last post since version 1 hardware was generating less heat then the temprature difference should be much greater.

[PCC-Jon]

As you approach ambient temperature, the cooling effects of a radiator diminish, so I think what we're seeing is just that both systems are cooled so well that its about as good as you'll get with radiator cooling. To go lower, you'd have to introduce a chiller or TEC.

[Brett_cgb]

I'm assuming the V1 computer is still running... :)

I like the idea of fish in the tank (I thought the same thing when I saw pictures), but they can't survive there. The blue gravel is a nice touch. :thumbsup

I keep thinking about passive cooling. I didn't see anywhere (either version system) what the tank is made of, but I would guess acrylic. Compared to glass, acrylic has a higher thermal resistance (doesn't transmit heat as well as glass). It's possible that a glass tank may not need an external cooling system.

I'm curious if you've done anything to replace or clean the oil?
If not, have you noticed any visible changes in either the oil or any of the hardware?
How well the tank itself has held up? (Assumming acrylic) Any cracks or clouding?

[PCC-Jon]

Yes, a glass tank would perform better, but this acrylic one fits so well! You'd likely have to use a larger tank and do more mod work to go glass.

V1 is still running strong. The hardware is just like it was on day 1. The acrylic is also fine, no clouding or cracks at all. The oil has gotten murky, so you'll probably want to either filter or replace your oil one a year (or every 30,000 miles). We're working on using a car fuel filter to clean the oil, I'll let you know if that works.

[josh4bball]

I have a couple of cooling question:

1. how do heatsinks impact temp?
2. how do the radiator fans impact temp?
3. would it be better or worse to add ventalation holes to the top of case?
4. would having fans submerged in the oil help cooling by moving the oil around or would they be an un-needed (minor) power drain on the PSU?

also when are you going to post the build instructions for version 2?

[Shivers]

btw everyone, bang;
http://www.maximumpc.com/article/features/hardcorepc_reactor
It seems it's now becoming a commercial product, and I gotta say, their design/look is pretty nice.

[EFDisaster]

Version 2?!?! I want an acrylic motherboard tray! Geez, you guys, stop making me want so much

Anyway, checking in on the status of my tankpc (http://fashiondisaster.org/2007/07/12/fishtank-computer-needs-a-name/). My power supply died, I think... or perhaps the old gateway hardware with the Pentium IV was just too hot for the oil, I dunno. I got a Zalman Reserator to hook up, and when I went to power it on, I got nothing... not really looking forward to pulling this thing out of the oil to fix it.

Oh, and I just saw this: http://www.hardcorecomputer.com/Index.aspx

[Reader]

My question is, how easy is it to try the parts off? If I were to do something similar, I'd want the ability to at least change out RAM. Worst case scenario, I suppose I'll just buy those extra 2gigs before I start my project.

Edit: just noticed this forum is organized by newest in front :D

[DDW]

Our computer was very much a success in the heat and humidity and vibration of spending a summer on a pier on a lake here. We had to pull it out briefly because vibration had possibly caused an oil wave action to pull apart the motherboard sections, but zipties cured that. We changed the hard drive to a solid state one and dunked it in also, must say it's unusual to have a completely quiet computer. It's not very pretty but the idea was to create a computer that can handle the conditions and keep working without overheating or rusting (also no maintenance) and it met the challenge very well. The wire and cable insulation appears very stiff but shows no sign of failure yet, stickers are still attached to the RAM chips as well. The oil was kind of murky so we filtered it through a marine inline fuel filter as we siphoned the oil out the old fashioned way, it did clear up quite a bit but still some murkiness. No evaporation was noticed over the summer and temp stayed between 96 and 104 degrees according to our stick-on thermometer. It is quite a mess to work on and the oil will stain your clothes so be careful. Otherwise we're looking forward to another year hopefully with no problems.

[PCC-Jon]

Check out our new DIY kits at http://www.pugetsystems.com/aquarium_kit.php !

[Whippy]

I myself had a number of questions for Puget, or anyone who has done this "case" mod. I myself work in a skilled profession (plumber/pipefitter/welder), and have access to any number of tools....So last year I made a water cooling system using 1/2 inch copper block, lexan, an enormous 500 gph inline pump (marine spec), and a brand new 1987 Chevy blazer heater core (4x 80 mm fan sized) I designed it to automotive specs, and ran a 5% mix of zerex antifreeze (The orange stuff)

Photos:
http://s118.photobucket.com/albums/o110/MisterWhippy/?action=view&current=Block1-1.jpg
http://s118.photobucket.com/albums/o110/MisterWhippy/?action=view&current=pumpradfull.jpg
http://s118.photobucket.com/albums/o110/MisterWhippy/?action=view&current=blockclose.jpg
http://s118.photobucket.com/albums/o110/MisterWhippy/?action=view&current=blockmount.jpg

Always I have feared a leak, even though I know there is no way it could leak, but Murphy and his law always plague me....

I was eyeballing this for quite some time and finally evolved enough questions.

My first question is regarding the CPU.

Do you silicone any part of the CPU, or has it been discovered that the oil does not affect any of the thermal paste? I have read of "Silicon'in" parts of the cpu mount, but where/what for?

I also notice that you have left large air coolers on the cpu, and was curious if anyone has tried to use a water cooling block (Like in the above photos) as a return line on the radiator. I understand that the oil is more viscous than water, and more than likely has lower levels of heat removal , but even at half the volume my pump can do to account for thickness of fluid, this is still 250 gph of fluid moving across a pure copper plate.

Basically instead of simply pumping oil out of the container through a radiator, and back to the container, having the "Oil block" (converted water block) as the first point of entry in the submersion tank.

Graphic cards:

Have you noticed any effect on the lame thermal tape used on stock GPU coolers? Have temps really changed all that much on an individual component basis?

Enclosure:

Using a single piece acrylic tank is a great idea, but have you had any experience with glass tanks. More specifically, how does silicone aquarium sealant hold up against the oil.


I used to keep a number of small and large reef tanks, and have ample supplies of plumbing and pumps available, and the biggest interest of this project to me is that aside from radiator fans, it makes it totally silent. This alone will make my wife happy.

I have a very heat intensive system, and feel that this could fix alot of issues.

Thanks in advance

J

8800 gt sli
Opteron 180
4 gig ddr 500
DFI LP Sli DR Nf4 Expert
Some crappy Audigy 2

[AeroB]

Hey Jon, has any thought been put into cooling the mineral to near ambient temperature using a refrigeration unit? I know part of the design is to have it run as quiet as possible, but for my application its not necessary. I'm thinking either have copper coil running through the tank carrying the cooled refrigerant or simply pumping the liquid out into a cooled environment such as a freezer.

[PCC-Jon]

We've thought about it, but ended up being entirely satisfied with the radiator cooling -- we wanted to keep it simple, and quiet. If I were to refridgerate it, I'd look at using an aquarium chiller.

[Uncle Woja]

Hi.

Love the idea of the oil PC but I have a few questions about teh V2 system.

1. Why use Antec Tri-Cools? There are better fans out there that are easier to control speed with such as the Scythe Slipstream 1200 RPM fans.

2. Do all teh fans run all the time? Given that it would take a while for the temp to rise, some better fans, plugged into the MB (probably via an expansion slot bracket) would allow you to stagger the fan spin up and make it more slick. I.E. Fan 1 turns on above 35C and hits max speed by 38C. All other fans off. Fan 2 turns on @ 38.5C and hits max speed @ 41.5C. Fan 3 and 4 off. etc etc.

3. It looks like you're dumping cold oil into the case at the same place as you're taking hot oil. Is this the case as it would hinder the cooling of the rig.

4. Why didn't you put hose barbs in the back of the case for the cooling rather than have the hoses coming out the top and looping around?

5. Aren't the convective currents enough to circulate oil through the heat sink?

6. What about a MB with UV reactive slots?

7. If the pump is powerful enough, you could split the output of the pump and pipe it directly to strategic hot spots like CPU and GPU so the coldest oil is pumped directly onto those heatsinks.

8. Murky oil is generally the sign that its molecular structure is starting to break down and that it may have absorbed water. You only as little as 0.1% water content in oil to turn it milky. Filtering using the proper equipment can get rid of the water, but nothing will restore the molecular structure of the oil. A fuel filter will simply be too fine for oil and your pump will not be powerful enough to pump against the restriction leading to your pump dying. You should be able to find places in your area that sell industrial oil filters that would be much more suitable for the job. "Industrial" oil filter doesn't mean huge. They should be able to supply a small, inline oil filter similar in size to a car fuel filter.

[Whippy]

I was eyeballing this for quite some time and finally evolved enough questions.

My first question is regarding the CPU.

Do you silicone any part of the CPU, or has it been discovered that the oil does not affect any of the thermal paste? I have read of "Silicon'in" parts of the cpu mount, but where/what for?

I also notice that you have left large air coolers on the cpu, and was curious if anyone has tried to use a water cooling block (Like in the above photos) as a return line on the radiator. I understand that the oil is more viscous than water, and more than likely has lower levels of heat removal , but even at half the volume my pump can do to account for thickness of fluid, this is still 250 gph of fluid moving across a pure copper plate.

Basically instead of simply pumping oil out of the container through a radiator, and back to the container, having the "Oil block" (converted water block) as the first point of entry in the submersion tank.

Graphic cards:

Have you noticed any effect on the lame thermal tape used on stock GPU coolers? Have temps really changed all that much on an individual component basis?

Enclosure:

Using a single piece acrylic tank is a great idea, but have you had any experience with glass tanks. More specifically, how does silicone aquarium sealant hold up against the oil.


I used to keep a number of small and large reef tanks, and have ample supplies of plumbing and pumps available, and the biggest interest of this project to me is that aside from radiator fans, it makes it totally silent. This alone will make my wife happy.

I have a very heat intensive system, and feel that this could fix alot of issues.

Thanks in advance

J

8800 gt sli
Opteron 180
4 gig ddr 500
DFI LP Sli DR Nf4 Expert
Some crappy Audigy 2


Any imput on these questions?

[josh4bball]

I have a couple of cooling question:

1. how do heatsinks impact temp?
2. how do the radiator fans impact temp?
3. would it be better or worse to add ventalation holes to the top of case?
4. would having fans submerged in the oil help cooling by moving the oil around or would they be an un-needed (minor) power drain on the PSU which in turn would add heat?
5. When looking at heatsinks what is more important weight or surface area, because by weighing more it means that it has more materail to transfer heat but if it has more surface area it means that it has a larger area to disapate the heat (right?)

also when are you going to post the build instructions for version 2?

[shahadin]

ver the years, we have seen many projects on the web that cooled a computer using common vegetable oil, including a very popular video by Tom's Hardware.

We felt that by building a computer in an aquarium using clear mineral oil, that we would be able to accomplish a much more attractive result, with less work. We were happy with the results!

We are pleased to present this page showing you the system we built, and giving you the information you need to make one of your own!

[Whippy]

Any imput on these questions?

See I was asking a few questions so that I could put this together this weekend, but no one seems to see my responses.

The most important question I have is in reference to the cpu socket, and if it needs sealed etc.

It would have been nice if someone at least answered this question for me. I understand the others are semi-technical in nature.

[PCC-Jon]

Whippy, with respect, your question is answered on our information page, which is probably why no one took the time to respond.


Silicon Sealant: We used this clear waterproof sealant to seal the acrylic to the lid of the aquarium, mainly to make the top as airtight as possible to prevent as much evaporation as we could. Sealant is NOT needed around the CPU.

To answer your other questions: I would recommend air coolers over liquid cooling blocks. There's a ton more surface area, so under the oil, I think they'll do a better job, even if you do specifially pump the oil through the block. Besides, they're a lot cheaper :) The oil does a great job taking away heat, so you don't need to use very large heatsinks.

We haven't noticed any ill effect to thermal tape, though we haven't exactly removed the heatsink on the video card to take a look. All I can tell you is its running rock solid after nearly a year and a half now.

[PCC-Jon]

@Uncle Woja


1. Why use Antec Tri-Cools? There are better fans out there that are easier to control speed with such as the Scythe Slipstream 1200 RPM fans.

We like the ability to easily switch them between low, medium, and high modes...though admittedly we've only run them on low. Mainly we used them because we have a ton of them in stock (http://www.pugetsystems.com/store/?cat=Additional+Cooling&que=tricool).



2. Do all teh fans run all the time? Given that it would take a while for the temp to rise, some better fans, plugged into the MB (probably via an expansion slot bracket) would allow you to stagger the fan spin up and make it more slick. I.E. Fan 1 turns on above 35C and hits max speed by 38C. All other fans off. Fan 2 turns on @ 38.5C and hits max speed @ 41.5C. Fan 3 and 4 off. etc etc.

That's a good idea. We haven't taken the trouble to do anything like that, because on low, you can barely hear the fans at all. Some people would say that a contant (low) noise level is less annoying than one that changes over time.


3. It looks like you're dumping cold oil into the case at the same place as you're taking hot oil. Is this the case as it would hinder the cooling of the rig.

That's not the case, but I understand that you would think that because the tube is hard to see under the oil. We run the return line over to the PSU, which is the hottest point.


4. Why didn't you put hose barbs in the back of the case for the cooling rather than have the hoses coming out the top and looping around?

If they come out the back, you have to worry about leaks. We specifically have done nothing to the tank, so that we don't have to worry about leaks over time. Let gravity be your friend -- only enter and leave the oil at the surface :)


5. Aren't the convective currents enough to circulate oil through the heat sink?

Yep. Again, we only left the fans running to see if they'd fail (they don't). However, they're also fun to look at, and the make stronger currents which are also fun to look at.


6. What about a MB with UV reactive slots?

What's the question?


7. If the pump is powerful enough, you could split the output of the pump and pipe it directly to strategic hot spots like CPU and GPU so the coldest oil is pumped directly onto those heatsinks.

True, but according to our measurements, there is little to no temperature gradient in the oil. It distributes the heat extremely evenly, within 1C from one side to the other. We're satisfied with just having the return line on the opposite side of the tank.


8. Murky oil is generally the sign that its molecular structure is starting to break down and that it may have absorbed water.

I don't think that's the case. I think it is dust. On V2, the oil was murky on day 1, and it was because we didn't wash the rocks before putting them in. You might be right about filters...we'll try it and let you know :) I think it is most likely that our problem will be how quickly the filters saturate.

[PCC-Jon]

@josh4bball


1. how do heatsinks impact temp?

They provide surface area, for the oil to cool. Without them, the oil wouldn't be able to pull heat away quickly enough, and the components would probably burn up (but we haven't tried it...MAYBE it would be OK!)


2. how do the radiator fans impact temp?

Significantly. I'd estimate the radiator only has 1/3 the effect without fans.


3. would it be better or worse to add ventalation holes to the top of case?

It wouldn't make much difference to temperature. I'd go without them -- the bubbles cause some "splashing" and vent holes would just allow a mess.


4. would having fans submerged in the oil help cooling by moving the oil around or would they be an un-needed (minor) power drain on the PSU which in turn would add heat?

They don't create much heat (maybe what...a watt each?). They're also not needed for circulation. My advice is to make your decision based on visual effect.


5. When looking at heatsinks what is more important weight or surface area, because by weighing more it means that it has more materail to transfer heat but if it has more surface area it means that it has a larger area to disapate the heat (right?)

Surface area. More mass would allow the heatsink to absorb more heat than it can dissipate for a short time, which may be important for air cooling, but just isn't needed in the oil.


also when are you going to post the build instructions for version 2?

We've posted everything we plan to for now. Version 2 is very similar to the first one, only uses more polished materials...ones you can buy from us, incidently :) Think of it like building V1, only you have everyone pre-modded and ready to go.

[josh4bball]

When looking at your do it yourself kits for this project in the description for the tank it says you modified its hood, is it possible to find out what modifications you did to it? And also will and standard ATX motherboard fit on your custom acrylic motherboard tray or not?

[PCC-Jon]

Sure! The mods we do are we cut out the center brace, and smooth away the stubs, we cut back the small plane on the right rear corner by about a half inch, we drill two holes in back (about 260mm apart), and we drill two 3/4 inch holes in the left side of the top cover hatch (if you purchase a cooling module).

Any standard ATX motherboard (or mATX) will fit on the tray.

[arras]

a few questions (I don't think these have been asked yet, I did my best to search/read beforehand)

I'm thinking of putting my current system into the aquarium pc and I'm wondering how much time should I spend dusting/cleaning the components? From what I've read, dust makes the oil murky/dirty looking but does it impact cooling as well? I'm mostly concerned about the power supply, since that's currently at the base of my case and is prone to collecting the most dust. The video card fan is also fairly hard to de-dust

I have two sata drives in a raid configuration, does the aquarium case allow for this or should I bite the bullet and get 2 SSDs and put those in a raid configuration?

I probably have more questions, but I can't think of any more right now...up too late watching election results :) I'm looking forward to try this out very soon!

[PCC-Jon]

I'd clean them as carefully as you can, with compressed air.

The aquarium tank doesn't allow for any standard hard drives, those would have to be external. It would allow two SSDs though.

[Cha0]

Quick Cooling question. I haven't built a PC in about 5 Years so i really don't know how hot the newer stuff gets. Do you guys think i will need a radiator for this project with the fallowing equipment?

AMD Phenom 9950 2.6GHz Black Edition Processor

Thermalright "Limited Edition" TRUE Copper Ultra-120 CPU Heatsink

ASUS M2N-E NF570ULTRA Mobo

8gigs of OCZ DII800 DDR2

430W PS

and a moderate video card(havnt picked one yet but it wont be too crazy, im not a big gamer)

???

I have everything for the mod ordered up. Only thing im unsure about is the acrylic back panel and how it works in conjunction with the top horizontal acrylic piece and the mobo tray. If anyone has any close up pics of the acrylic pieces that would be great. Thanks!!!

[jace26]

Does anyone know if Polyalkylene glycol oil is dielectric? its commonly used to lubricate AC systems in cars and can have a very low viscosity and very wide temperature range. However, it is pretty expensive, but it is oil and water soluable so you might even be able to use it as an additive to make the mineral oil more viscous and have a better temp range. I just don't know if it's dielectric or not!

[Eraser]

Buy some oil and test it.

You only have to hold a cabel with 220V in the oil - when there is no short it is ok...


Gregards,
E

[Shivers]

fyi, anyone that's interested in a part list can find one here;
http://forums.pugetsystems.com/showthread.php?t=3934

[jace26]

Well I got some PAG 46 and tested the resistance, and even with the probes only a few hundreds of an inch apart in 1 drop of oil I had infinite resistance.

Now the question is does anyone know where to buy this stuff by the gallon on the cheap?

[Grease Monkey]

Hello,

Got really excited by what you guys from Puget started.
I am planning on starting one of my own to be ready for my next i7 based mobo.

Also I would like to hear this forum take on the following:

* Using Peltier TEC:

One of the biggest drawback with use of Peltier TEC in conventional air ambient systems is water condensation.
Oil submersion completely annihilates this issue - anyone considering this ?


* Dissipating heat outside:

The room where I use my computer gets very warm.
I would like to carry all that heat elsewhere (outside).
This can be done with longer radiator hoses.

However, I plan on using a secondary water-based circuit because water is cheaper, cleaner and has a better heat carrying capacity.

I would use brazed plate heat exchanger allow for liquid-liquid heat transfer, and regular water hoses between the fish tank and the radiator.
http://www.bellgossett.com/productPages/BPX-industrial.jpg

Maybe one day I may put a water chiller (http://www.ocforums.com/showthread.php?t=573721) on the far end of the cooling loop.


* Hard disk solution:

Has anyone considered using a networked-attached storage, with pxe network boot, and an immersed solid-state disk when speed is needed ?


* Oil miscible fluorescent dye:

Has anyone tried mixing oil-miscible UV reactive dye (http://www.riskreactor.com/Fluorescent_Dyes/Fluorescent_Dyes_Data_Sheets/DFSB_C0__Invisible_Solvent_Fluorescent_Dye.htm) with the mineral oil ?

[Grease Monkey]

Sorry for dup post

[jace26]

Sweet, yeah I've considered doing several of those things but I move a lot (military) so the whole pumping liquid/air outside is impractical for me right now. I'd thought about doing it with air but I like your solution better. You could have an AC unit in the attic and run your radiator right next to the coils and then send your cold water/oil down to the tank. The two biggest problems I see with chilling this setup is that if its too cold the tank will form condensation, and if the oil is too cold its viscosity will drop and you'll have a tank full of syrup like liquid that will slow movement and make pumping impossible. But if you read my previous posts I've discussed using PAG 46 refrigerant oil in this system because of its big temperature range and very low viscosity.

I am now really close to getting my system setup, and I've only briefly thought of doing Peltier TEC, but I dont know much about it. But it sounds like you've got a good idea. Tell me more!

I'm pretty sure the dye would be fine, some PAG oils even have dyes in them. to be super safe though I'd mix it in a small batch and test the resistance.

I've got to sata drives outside the oil and that's just fine with me.

[sunday]

Hi,

I was thinking about building a completely silent computer, and found this thing of yours after some browsing. It's very interesting.

Looking for possible tweaking, and for local sourcing of materials I hit the problem of determining the exact oil to use. After some more browsing, I found the CAS Nr. of the "laxative mineral oil", approved for use in food handling machinery, non-toxic (almost) and mildly flammable. The CAS Nr. is the international, numeric identifier of a chemical. And hits official denomination: White mineral oil (Aceite mineral blanco in Spanish), CAS Nr. 8042-47-5


There are some manufacturers of the stuff:

i) STE Oil commercializes some fluids with the same CAS Nr. in the Crystal Plus range, with varying physical properties. See:

http://www.steoil.com/pdfs/techdata-crystalplus.pdf

Their 70 series has the lower viscosity in the range, 12 cSt @ 40ºC (water is 1 cSt @ 20 ºC)

ii) Paratherm Corporation sell it as heat transfer fluid with the name brand Paratherm OR. See:
http://www.paratherm.com/Paratherm-OR/or-thermal-fluid.asp

In the Paratherm site there is complete physical information about the fluid, so one person with some engineering background could derive the performance data for pumps, coolers, etc. from the performance data of those devices when used with water:

http://www.paratherm.com/_engineering/OREngBul.pdf
http://www.paratherm.com/Paratherm-OR/ORTypeProp.asp
http://www.paratherm.com/Paratherm-OR/ortabdata.asp
http://www.paratherm.com/Paratherm-OR/ORTabDataSI.asp

This company has a range of heat transfer fluids:

http://www.paratherm.com/heat_transfer_fluids.asp

Perhaps some of these are better for cooling a computer. Some are less viscous, some are more stable at higher temperatures.

BTW, I found why the CPU heatsink is needed: http://www.paratherm.com/tipsheets/tipsheet_fluid_life_film_temperature.asp

Best regards.

[XeoN]

Hi, I have a question about this way of cooling in combo with a Reserator 1 V2.

The cables of my reserator are at this moment attached to my CPU and my VGA, when I would like to oil-cool my PC ( buying a fish tank and lots of mineral oil ), what do I do with the cables? Do I let them hang loose in the Tank or do I leave them in the VGA / CPU...

Replacing, when letting the cables loose, the water with oil of course.

tl;rd What to do with the Reserator 1 V2 when using Mineral Oil Submerged PC

[rickyss]

hey, on v2 you said you have a gtx280 graphics card, and i would like to know if you guys sank it in as it is or did you remove the cover and backplate?

[PCC-Jon]

hey, on v2 you said you have a gtx280 graphics card, and i would like to know if you guys sank it in as it is or did you remove the cover and backplate?

We removed the plastic cover, and left the heatsink and fan (to agitate the oil). We just removed the plastic cover to help the oil flow freely over the heatsink.

[drakanious]

I read the last few pages of forum posts, and couldn't find an answer to my question. What radiator did you use for version 2?

Thanks.

== EDIT ==

I found the answer to my own question. Nevermind.

[BusoRenkin]

I wonder what would happen if you put in some sort of fragrance oil into the mineral oil. Essentially, that's what baby oil is... mineral oil with fragrance.

Maybe it could use the heat from the computer to emit fragrance around the computer's vicinity, thus not being able to smell the bad BO coming out of your pits when you're on one of those long raids on WoW or sweating from all the adrenaline you have from a FPS game.

[ennui]

First of all, kudos to Puget Systems for their work on this project. Your design and write-up were both top-notch.

I have a couple questions.

1.) Has anyone used Jefferslivestock (believe this was in a previous post) to source their mineral oil (http://www.jefferspet.com/product/vet-mineral-oil-gallon-1365.cfm)?

The 'AgriLabs Vet Mineral Oil' sold at that link seems to be rebranded CITGO Duoprime® Oil 90, which has a slightly thicker viscosity of 84 SUS @ 100 F as opposed to STE Crystal Plus 70T's viscosity of 72 SUS @ 100 F. The only other difference between the two is that the Duoprime contaims trace amounts of Vitamin E, an antioxidant.

The coolant used in the system may benefit from having an antioxidant. Oxidation may explain the clouding Puget Systems have mentioned in version 1. In fact, some patents involving the liquid cooling of electronics make mention of using an anti-oxidizing agent in their coolant. Additionally, the Jefferslivestock offering is considerably cheaper than STE.

2.) Has anyone performed this on a CPU making use of an unsealed LGA1366 socket (e.g. Intel Core i7-family) yet? I am concerned that the closer proximity of the pins in this new style of socket may be more prone to short-circuit.

[HenriPro]

I am interested in getting the kit, but am wondering about thermal grease many sites give conflicting info on weather it is best to, seal the base of the heat sinks to prevent oil from going in, not use thermal grease at all or, let the grease harden first with out oil then submerge it.

Also, has any one tried using an indoor water fall type fountain for cooling instead of a radiator. It should give better cooling then a radiator because the mineral oil is in direct contact with the air and it would go well with the water theme. I believe this was mentioned before but no one replied.

[KCE]

How about Feser One (http://www.feser-one.com/site/) as the coolant?

According to this review at bit-tech (http://www.bit-tech.net/modding/2008/02/16/watercooling_fluid_shootout/4) it's a good alternative.

Some good points (not advertising):


Low viscosity, non-conductive, non-corrosive
Performance close to water
Cheaper than FluidXP, Fluorinert, etc.
Multiple colors including UV


http://images.bit-tech.net/content_images/2008/02/watercooling_fluid_shootout/tablewater.jpg

http://images.bit-tech.net/content_images/2008/02/watercooling_fluid_shootout/tablefeser.jpg

I'm in the US but it's about $20 per 1000ml (or 0.26gallons) so it would cost about $80 for a gallon.

[giorgioprimo]

Was surfing around durring Crystmas holiday and so wthis nice project.
have 2 question:

1) is possible to run the system with no cooler on CPU and GPU ? ( maybe is stupid question...)

2) is possible tu run the system with wather block on CPU and GPU connected to a pump wich get oil dirctly form th einside of the aquarium?

Thanks

[rickyss]

hello again!!
i have managed to build a system just like that and it works like a dream!!
however i have one million dollar question: what is the software you used for temp monitoring that can draw a time graph (the on you posted the temp screenshots from)? i am asking because i want to be able to see the temperature evolution over various conditions.

Thanx

[Komodo]

Before I ask my questions, I'd like to say how awesome it is that people from all over the world are coming together in support of such a nifty project. Your spirit, ideas, comments, and questions (all 40 pages of them!) were very useful while planning my own Aquarium PC.


These questions are for Jon, the builder. I figure I have about a week to figure this all out before the rest of my parts arrive and assembly begins, so a response within that timeframe would be most appreciated. Thanks!

1. You don't have any pictures or written accounts of the order in which you assembled the components. It seems like you assembled the mobo, CPU, and expansion cards on the motherboard tray, then hooked up the [naked] PSU and carefully lowered the entire thing into the aquarium, having the crushed rocks and bubble bar (sunken ship, fake fish, what have you) already in place. This may become clear once my tank arrives, but I'm sure other readers are curious, too.

2. I will be using a GTX 280 in my machine. I see you removed the plastic cover from your GTX 280, so I will plan to do that, as well. Do you have any issues with the oil coming out of the top (as mounted) of the card, or does the removal of the plastic cover allow it to simply flow back into the tank?

3. I will also be using a mechanical hard drive for my build. I noticed that v1 has the hard drive on top of the acrylic on some sort of pegs or standoffs <link (http://www.pugetsystems.com/gfx/submersion/gallery/one_year4.JPG)>. Did you actually mount it to the acrylic, or is it just resting on its "feet?" If the latter, does it move around at all as it spins up? I may end up mounting it to the acrylic if I feel stability is an issue (and space permits).

4. I noticed in one of the pictures <link (http://www.pugetsystems.com/gfx/submersion/gallery/Oct2008/lights.jpg)> a little black knob on the air line. Pray tell, what is that?


Now, a few comments, suggestions, and ideas. Please, do let us know if one of you tries any of the following; I'd like to hear if it worked out for you.

1. Many home computers these days have front/side USB ports (or FireWire, eSATA, etc.) and AC'97 headphone jacks. Personally, I am satisfied with a USB hub plugged in normally, and my Logitech Z-680 control unit has a headphone jack on it, so I don't need either of these features, but for any of you who are interested in them.... I'm sure you could Dremel an appropriately-sized hole in the side of the lid, cannibalize a USB extension cable or a bracket from a PCI pass-through or old case, and plug it in or hook up the headers. Same thing could be done with a drill and a front jack ripped from an old chassis. Presto, chango! Front/side ports, with no need to open the lid! :D

2. Someone (Shivers, I believe. See his post (with links) on p.34) suggested using Delrin Vandal Resistant Illuminated Switches for the power switch. Why not take it a step further, drill a second hole, and use a "ring" switch for the power and a "dot" switch for a reset button? If you were feeling sassy, you could even relocate them to the corner of the case, and use the original switch in the middle for turning the CCFLs on and off. [As my machine will be in my bedroom, I will be installing an on/off switch for the CCFLs so the room can be darkened at bedtime (which is usually after sunup, anyway :allnighter , but meh).]

3. I noticed a lot of people asking about what type of oil and where to get it. Well, I may be a physicist, but my school didn't offer a course on Comparative Dielectric Mineral Oil with Aquarium Computing and Economic Considerations :p , so I had to take it as an independent study. I can tell you that just about any type of oil will *work*, but some will, of course, work better than others. From everything I've read, my understanding is that a clear mineral oil with low viscosity and as few additives as possible is the best bet for the average user (read: anyone without the access to or funds for military- or industrial-grade transformer oil or boutique cooling oil). STE Oil <link (http://www.steoil.com)> has quite the selection, but their prices are a bit higher than average, and they don't include shipping. I found several sites that sell it, one as low as ~$7 per gallon, iirc, but again, shipping is killer. You can still find it at feed and tractor supply places if you're lucky, but after myriad phone calls, one of them told me that it's being phased out of equine care in favor of a more effective IV treatment, so it more likely than not will have to be special ordered. Taking a page out of the 1337 Fleet book <link (http://www.leetupload.com/tutorials/1337_fleet/)>, I ended up Wal*Mart hopping and buying 48, 16 fl.oz. bottles of their mild laxative mineral oil for $1.52 a pop, for a grand total of $76.60, including 5% MA sales tax. Compare that to $12.50 per gallon at the only local feed place to carry it, for a grand total of $75.00 pre-tax, and they had to special order it. Plus, you're already doing something rather silly by building a PC in an aquarium, so you might as well enjoy the full experience of buying 48 bottles of laxative. The looks on the cashiers' faces is priceless, and well worth an afternoon of driving around from store to store. And if you get tired of explaining to people (because they *will* ask) what you're doing with it, you can always tell them you're having a "shit festival!" :wickedlol

4. I lack the time, money, and space to implement this last brainstorm, or I surely would have: Why not build an aquarium PC for your living room, then place the whole thing on an acrylic stand inside a much larger real aquarium, replete with fish? I think that would make for a simply amazing visual effect. :jaw The water in the fish tank would draw heat from the PC and dissipate it much better than air; a radiator would probably not even be needed. If you wanted to get really crazy, you could slap together a 3-way SLI or Crossfire-X system and pump the oil through a Reserator-type radiator immersed in the fish tank (It's a closed-loop system, so water immersion should be fine, provided corrosion isn't an issue.) for superior cooling (or heating of your fish tank, if you prefer to look at it that way). I have not yet crunched the numbers, but I imagine this would work particularly well with tropical fish, due to the heat drawn from the PC. And who knows? Maybe you could even set it up to automatically feed your fish when you go on vacation!


Anyways, I know it's a long, long post, but thanks for reading, and I hope you take away some good ideas. Do let us know if any of them work out for you! Cheers!

[PCC-Jon]

Hi Komodo!


1. You don't have any pictures or written accounts of the order in which you assembled the components. It seems like you assembled the mobo, CPU, and expansion cards on the motherboard tray, then hooked up the [naked] PSU and carefully lowered the entire thing into the aquarium, having the crushed rocks and bubble bar (sunken ship, fake fish, what have you) already in place. This may become clear once my tank arrives, but I'm sure other readers are curious, too.

Yep, that's correct. The PSU is the most awkward. We tried to make a "shelf" to mount it to, but there just wasn't the room. You should be able to assemble EVERYTHING but the PSU on the motherboard try before lowering it into the aquarium.


2. I will be using a GTX 280 in my machine. I see you removed the plastic cover from your GTX 280, so I will plan to do that, as well. Do you have any issues with the oil coming out of the top (as mounted) of the card, or does the removal of the plastic cover allow it to simply flow back into the tank?

Nope, no issues with oil coming out the top. The fan on the GPU just doesn't push that hard. In fact, with the plastic cover removed, it doesn't really do much at all (just stirs the oil around a bit).


3. I will also be using a mechanical hard drive for my build. I noticed that v1 has the hard drive on top of the acrylic on some sort of pegs or standoffs <link>. Did you actually mount it to the acrylic, or is it just resting on its "feet?" If the latter, does it move around at all as it spins up? I may end up mounting it to the acrylic if I feel stability is an issue (and space permits).

Its just resting on "feet" (thumb screws!). There's not enough torque on spin-up for it to move at all.


4. I noticed in one of the pictures <link> a little black knob on the air line. Pray tell, what is that?

Airflow control! More bubbles, less bubbles....we've found that too much air foams up the oil and makes a bit of a mess.

[JimJohnson]

In another thread / post I noticed you said the v2 is not set up for regular hard drives. What SSD drive do you recommend? Or how hard would it be to adapt v2 to support 2 VelociRaptors for RAID0?

[PCC-Jon]

We used a SSD internally with v2, but you don't have to. Theres an external SATA bracket available so you can run a starndard hard drive up out of the oil. If you want two hard drives, you'd just need two of those brackets is all.

The Intel SSDs are excellent, but quite expensive. In my personal experience, the only SSDs that make sense are the faster, more expensive ones. Otherwise Velociraptors are a better buy. Of course, the decision here is more complicated, because you can only run SSD in the oil.

[JimJohnson]

When mounting the normal hard drives does the kit come with stand offs or would those need purchased seperatly? Also with v2 would you just pace the HDs as they are placed in v1? Does that actually give enough room for 2 velociraptors?

[PCC-Jon]

You'd need to come up with a way to mount them yourself. There should be room for two -- its tight, but should fit.

[akelly999]

quick thought on a change I am doing to my system. I am going to use a couple of reed switches for the power and reset. Just mount them to the inside of the tank and use a small magnet on the outside to activate. I just thought I would share that idea.

For those of you still trying to get mineral oil. you can use baby oil which is available everywhere. its up to you if you like scented oil. you can go to any store that sells farm supplies as mineral oil is used as a laxative for horses. you can also contact a local animal vet about getting some.

[JimJohnson]

Well went ahead and picked up 2 SSD 60G|OCZ OCZSSD2-1SLD60G RTL that I am going to put in RAID0. I had picked up 2 150gb VR that I RMAed, will just add in a 500gb or a 1tb data drive. Can not wait for wed to get here so I can finally assemble everything.

I have an asus GTX 295 1792MB that I will be using as my main video card. I also have an 8800 GTX thats just being used as a paper weight currently.. Would you recommend doing SLI Cuda set up?

Card 1: Graphics rendering
Card 2: Dedicated to PhysX acceleration

[vanov]

I wanted to ask you opinion on the possibility of placing the entire rig into a fridge say at 10 celsius. Since there would not be any condensation it should theoretically increase the overcolockability dramatically albeit the electricity bill aswell.


Your thoughts ?

[vanov]

I am interested in finding out the limits of such systems. In other words MAX performance and overclockability. But with a different cooler.

The idea is to have the radiator wrapped in steel wool

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steel_wool

and submerged in a mist of water created by a ultrasound humidifier. So instead of warming a pool of water. The increased radiator surface, assisted by some low powered fan would evaporate the small droplets attached to the wool and thus remain much cooler than usual. Apart from constantly adding water, a slightly increased electricity bill and the vague possibility of living in a sauna during fall and spring i don't see severe drawbacks. The setup would still be quite cheap.

Comments ?

[vanov]

Alternatively instead of humidifiers on could submerge a lot of bubble generators similar to the one used in aquariums, they would have to generate very small bubbles in high quantities and thus the air coming out at the surface would be highly humidified and would probably also condense and immediately evaporate once in contact with the wool.

[rndhotdog]

Jon, I have just a couple of questions. I've read about 90% of this thread, 42 pages is a bit much. Sorry about any repeated questions.

First off, I know I read that the acrylic motherboard could hold a mATX or standard ATX, but I was wondering if this was a mistype. Because, if it's true, I think I just wet myself. (if it's true, then will SLI fit?)

Second, Why couldn't you just use IDE or SATA like any normal means


I am going to be buying the Aquarium + cooling module from you guys. Other than buying an expensive SSD, or raptor. What would you suggest?

[JimJohnson]

Will I run into any issues if I do not mount my SSDs and just let them sit on the bottom of the tank? I dont see anyway to mount 2 in RAID0 unless I leave them unmounted in the bottom.

[JimJohnson]

with V2 what is holding the radiator off the tank. nothing in my DIY kit will work how I see it mounted in this picture.

http://www.pugetsystems.com/pic_disp.php?name=/gfx/aquarium_kits/fans.jpg

also if anyone could please explain how you are suppose to prime the radiator it would be a big help as the DIY comes with no documentation other then a slip saying prime before use.

[Gary Boldie]

Hi all,

I'm new here. I have to say, I love the submerged PC idea. It looks superb, and so unusual. I do have a question though. Apologies if it's been asked before, but has anyone tried running one of these without the CPU cooler?
I reckon there would be a good chance that direct contact between the oil and the CPU would make a better job than having the two "insulated" from one-another by the heatsink. If I'm right, then the CPU temperature could come down a lot closer to the oil temperature. Perhaps there wouldn't even be any need for an external oil cooler.

What do you think?

Cheers,

Gary

[PCC-Jon]

with V2 what is holding the radiator off the tank. nothing in my DIY kit will work how I see it mounted in this picture.

http://www.pugetsystems.com/pic_disp.php?name=/gfx/aquarium_kits/fans.jpg

also if anyone could please explain how you are suppose to prime the radiator it would be a big help as the DIY comes with no documentation other then a slip saying prime before use.

Josh -- I see you've already answered your questions with us via email and phone, but I wanted to post some of our responses for the benefit of others:

Q: How do you mount the radiator?
A: The radiator should mount via some long screws that were included with the kit. They attach to the radiator mount, and then hang from some pre-drilled holes on the top of the aquarium housing.

Q: What powers the submerged pump? I don't remember plugging any power to it and did not attach it to my motherboard.
A: The motherboard does power the submerged pump. It should connect to some headers on your motherboard.

Q: How do you prime the radiator the first time you start it up?
A: Since the pump is down in the oil, its already primed. Go ahead and hook up one side of the radiator to the OULET on the pump (the nossle on the outside edge of the pump). The problem is getting that first bit of oil up over the top of the loop to the radiator -- the pump doesn't enough enough power to do that while there's air in the rest of the lines (its no problem at all once the oil is fed through the whole system). To help the pump, use the principles of the good ol' fashioned siphon. We're switching to a new type of radiator soon that will make it easier, but for now, you'll just want to suck some oil through the hose, and switch on the pump once you have the radiator reasonably filled with oil. To do this, you might need to use a toothpick or something to open the quick disconnect valve on the other end of the hose.

[F-Bomber]

Alternatively instead of humidifiers on could submerge a lot of bubble generators similar to the one used in aquariums, they would have to generate very small bubbles in high quantities and thus the air coming out at the surface would be highly humidified and would probably also condense and immediately evaporate once in contact with the wool.

Silica airstones (http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+3669+8121&pcatid=8121)make the finest bubbles.(I use them in small protein skimmers in my "real" aquariums.) The purpose of a protein skimmer is to make a lot of foam to filter dissolved protiens out of the water. If the submerged system already had foaming issues like the PCC one, the foaming would only get worse.

[ObiQuiet]

Has anyone tried, or know anything about the clarity and viscosity of, the Su-Per mineral oil sold by KV Pet & Equine?
http://www.kvvet.com/KVVet/productr.asp?pf_id=31501&gift=False&HSLB=False

Thanks!

[edit] The manufacturer is http://www.gatewayproductsinc.com/ I've asked them. Will post if I get a reply.

[edit2] Response was:
Viscosity 40 C ..............................................12 to 16 cSt

Viscosity 100 F .........................................68 to 78 SUS

Viscosity 210 F .........................................33 to 39 SUS

[drphilmarshall]

Jon,

This is beautiful work. I can imagine people wanting one of these for purely aesthetic reasons, let alone the cooling performance improvement, and I guess that's the mark of a truly top-class design.

I am very interested, as I'm sure you and your customers are too, in ways in which people can reduce the amount of energy they use, both for financial and economic reasons. Can you tell us how much your Mineral Oil Submerged Computer would save a typical user, both in units of US dollars and kiloWatt hours per day? Someone may have asked this already, sorry - but I didn't see it on the FAQ.

Thanks very much - and congratulations again!

Phil

[drphilmarshall]

I meant, of course, "for financial and ENVIRONMENTAL reasons". Clearly Obama's stimulus package has not yet reached my brain. ;)

[josh4bball]

The other day I was at my local Petsmart and they had the same aquarium you used as your case for sale. So I stopped to take a look at it and realized that there is a filter builtin to the hood of the case. Now I remember there was some previous talk about how the oil starts to look a little dirty after a while and the possible solution mentioned was to have the oil pass through a filter. Which leads me to wonder why the filter that is built into the hood of aquarium can not be used for such a purpose?

[ObiQuiet]

why the filter that is built into the hood of aquarium can not be used for such a purpose?

I thought of that too, before I bought the tank. It could work, unless these are insurmountable:

a) The pump's impeller is small, it may not be able to do much with the extra weight of the oil. I will give it a try, but don't have the oil yet.

b) The pump and filter bays are a single molded piece, which occupies most of the top opening of the tank and which sit down below the top edge of the tank, where the back plane of the PC goes. I doubt there's a way to fit both at the same time.

c) The filter mechanism is designed to cascade water over the filter, and then over another lip into the tank. The splashing oil may be a pain to deal with.

The above is just observations from looking at the tank and testing it out with water. I haven't built the PC into the tank or tried it with oil yet.

My take is that a filter scheme which uses two flexible hoses in and out of the tank will be easier to deal with.

ObiQuiet

[ObiQuiet]

a good chance that direct contact between the oil and the CPU would make a better job than having the two "insulated" from one-another by the heatsink.

It would indeed be nice to skip the heatsink. However, the heat transfer rate between chip and oil would have to be much higher than the heat transfer rate between heat sink and oil to make up for the lost surface area. Therefore, the chip will run hotter in direct contact with the oil, even as the heated oil flows away by convection.

Specifically, if the reduction in surface area is a factor of A, then the heat transfer co-eff direct to the oil would have to be A times greater than the one from chip-to-heatsink-to-oil. Which seems unlikely.

I'm no thermal expert, that's just my (possibly faulty) conclusion from a high-school understanding of the way heat moves...

ObiQuiet

[Gary Boldie]

Specifically, if the reduction in surface area is a factor of A, then the heat transfer co-eff direct to the oil would have to be A times greater than the one from chip-to-heatsink-to-oil. Which seems unlikely.


Yep. That's the crux of it - would the increase in convection in the much heavier medium of oil be enough to shift the heat from just the CPU surface alone?

I can't claim to have any deep knowledge of the subject either, but some very crude thinking about things like kettles would suggest that liquids do provide massively better convective heat transfer than air - my kettle element is a flat plate with an area of about 12 square inches, yet it only gets just above the water temp, dispite dissipating 3KW. Scaling that down, you should be able to push 250W through one square inch. I've no idea how well oil would convect heat compared to water though. I guess not so well because of the viscosity, but my gut feeling is that the CPU temp would still stay fairly close to the oil temp.

I'm guessing that a standard CPU cooler doesn't do that well in this respect. The 88C CPU temp of the original Puget system seems to bear this out. Does anyone know what the oil temp was when the CPU was up at 88C?

I reckon it'd be worth a try to see what happens. I think I might have to build a submerged PC to fine out though...

Cheers,

Gary.

[Parabol]

I was wondering what thoughts there were on viscosity's of oil. I found a good deal on lightweight. Will this work well? Also did you still use thermal paste on the heat sinks? Thanks

[npolyz]

Hi I live in Canada so I can't pruchase the oils from STE oil company. I am wondering where to get mineral oil in Canada... So far I've found some places to get it but they have slightly different names and I'm not sure if they will work. Could anyone help me? Or suggest where to get mineral oil?

http://cgi.ebay.ca/High-Viscosity-Mineral-Oil-5-Gallons_W0QQitemZ5666407627QQihZ014QQcategoryZ3175 2QQtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1742.m153.l126 2#ebayphotohosting

http://www.medshopexpress.com/639151.html

http://lubricants.petro-canada.ca/en/products/307.aspx

http://www.medshopexpress.com/037881.html#

Thanks,
nick :thumbsup

[liquidpaper]

Screw convection. Use a fan. If you're moving oil onto the processor then the loss of surface area would be made up moving oil across the surface of the processor. Even better than a fan you could take the output of the radiator if you have one and place it so the oil moves across the processor then your processor would stay almost as cool as the cooled oil coming out of your radiator.

[Gary Boldie]

Screw convection. Use a fan. If you're moving oil onto the processor then the loss of surface area would be made up moving oil across the surface of the processor. Even better than a fan you could take the output of the radiator if you have one and place it so the oil moves across the processor then your processor would stay almost as cool as the cooled oil coming out of your radiator.

Sounds like a good plan if convection turns out not to be enough. I'd tend to use a pump rather than a fan though, even if there was no radiator. I'd set it up to pull oil from the bottom of the tank and blow it upwards across the CPU, so it assists convection rather than fighting it.

An interesting variant would be to have the motherboard only partially submerged, with the CPU above the surface and cooled by a "waterfall" of oil :D

Cheers,

Gary.

[liquidpaper]

Sounds like a good plan if convection turns out not to be enough. I'd tend to use a pump rather than a fan though, even if there was no radiator. I'd set it up to pull oil from the bottom of the tank and blow it upwards across the CPU, so it assists convection rather than fighting it.of course a pump would be better than a fan but they tend to be over $50 and good fans range from $5 to $10 bucks although a fan isn't going to move the oil much. i wouldn't imagine just a pump would be a good idea because then the processor would be heating up all of the oil without much cooling it down thus possibly overheating other components. :eek:



An interesting variant would be to have the motherboard only partially submerged, with the CPU above the surface and cooled by a "waterfall" of oil :Di think that would look really cool and be fairly functional as well since the oil falling off of the processor would be cooled a little by the air as it fell through it. but if something were to happen and the processor is not under the waterfall (say it got bumped and something shifted or the pump got clogged) for even a few seconds your processor is toast. You would also have to have your 'waterfall' turn on and start going before you powered up your computer. i just don't think its a practical idea. However you could have something like a waterfall then use a couple fans to blow on it and that would be your radiator. :)

i was thinking something like having the input of the pump right in front of the processor so its not heating the oil for the whole thing and placing the output on the next hottest place in the tank like say the graphics cards.

[Gary Boldie]

of course a pump would be better than a fan but they tend to be over $50 and good fans range from $5 to $10 bucks although a fan isn't going to move the oil much. i wouldn't imagine just a pump would be a good idea because then the processor would be heating up all of the oil without much cooling it down thus possibly overheating other components. :eek:


Yep. It all hinges on the oil temperature. Running without a CPU cooler wouldn't make the oil temperature any higher though, it should just (hopefully) reduce the CPU temperature. So if a system runs with a reasonable oil temp, say 50C, but the CPU gets too hot, then I'd say the problem is the CPU cooler. Taking that off, with or without adding a pump, might well be a neater and cheaper way to bring the CPU temp down than adding an external oil cooler.

That's why I'm interested to see what the oil temperature was on the original (uncooled) Puget system when they'd been thrashing it for ages and got the CPU up to 88C. If it was 85C, then my idea is a non-starter. I reckon it might have been a fair bit less than that though.


However you could have something like a waterfall then use a couple fans to blow on it and that would be your radiator. :)

This is starting to sound a lot like a Cray 2:D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cray_2

Cheers,

Gary.

[josh4bball]

I was wondering what was the model of radiator you were using prior to the Zalman Reserator 1 V2 change? Also are there any temperature changes with this new radiator? And lastly, just a thought, since the zalman has a built in reservoir you might be able to find a filter that fits inside of it.

[liquidpaper]

Yep. It all hinges on the oil temperature. Running without a CPU cooler wouldn't make the oil temperature any higher though, it should just (hopefully) reduce the CPU temperature. So if a system runs with a reasonable oil temp, say 50C, but the CPU gets too hot, then I'd say the problem is the CPU cooler. Taking that off, with or without adding a pump, might well be a neater and cheaper way to bring the CPU temp down than adding an external oil cooler.

i wouldn't try running a CPU without a cooler or moving oil without knowing just how much hotter the CPU will get. at the least i would underclock the CPU and bring the voltage waaaaay down then try it.

[Gary Boldie]

i wouldn't try running a CPU without a cooler or moving oil without knowing just how much hotter the CPU will get. at the least i would underclock the CPU and bring the voltage waaaaay down then try it.

Sounds like sensible precautions. If the oil was a bit cheaper, I'd be tempted to experiment on an old motherboard. My money would still be on a bare processor running cooler than one that's covered-up by a CPU cooler designed to work in near-room-temperature air instead of hot oil.

Cheers,

Gary.

[MarkB55]

Just a quick question. I am able to get a hold of some technical grade mineral oil with the following specifications: Paraffinic Oil 97.1%, Inert Ingredients 2.9%.

Specific Gravity 0.86
Pour Point -5 F
Viscosity cST 40 F 13
Flash Point 345 F
Auto Ignition Temp 235 C(455 F)

The Question I have are the flash point temps and auto ignition temps high enough so as not to cause problems when the oil come in contact with any parts that creat higher temps?

I will be using a radiator with my setup. :)

[ObiQuiet]

a bare processor running cooler than one that's covered-up

I wouldn't do that. You might skip the cooler & fan, but don't skip the heatsink or radiator. The radiator effectively multiplies the surface area of the chip exposed to the oil, thereby increasing the heat transfer rate by the same multiple.

No matter how much "new oil" you force over the bare chip in the interest of convection, it won't make up for that lost surface area. Heat transfer rates are a function of the surface area x the temperature differential x the material's heat coefficient.

Using radiator fins to increasing the surface area in contact with the oil by ~20x (2000%) is much more effective than moving oil which is slightly cooler (a few degrees out of 80 is less than 10%) over to the bare chip.

I am assuming that:
* the heat transfer coefficient from chip to radiator is much better than from chip to oil
* the heat transfer coefficients from chip to oil, and from radiator to oil, are close or equal
* I've got a handle on the way heat works. Could be wrong ;-)

[Gary Boldie]

I wouldn't do that. You might skip the cooler & fan, but don't skip the heatsink or radiator. The radiator effectively multiplies the surface area of the chip exposed to the oil, thereby increasing the heat transfer rate by the same multiple.

No matter how much "new oil" you force over the bare chip in the interest of convection, it won't make up for that lost surface area. Heat transfer rates are a function of the surface area x the temperature differential x the material's heat coefficient.

The problem is that fitting a heatsink to the CPU has an unwanted side-effect as well as increasing the surface area - it insulates the CPU from the cooling medium. The heat has to travel by conduction alone through the metalwork of the heatsink before it reaches the cooling medium. In order for that to happen, the CPU has to run hotter than the cooling medium.

This is fine if the cooling medium is at a low temperature, as in an air-cooled PC. The CPU can easily afford to sit many degrees above the air temperature in order to give the temperature gradient needed to push all its heat through the metalwork. Once the heat is through the metal, the fins can do their job of dumping the heat without needing huge amounts of air forced past them. It all makes sense as long as cool air is the cooling medium.

Once the whole thing is submerged in oil though, the surface area becomes far less important because of the hugely increased heat transfer capability of the oil. Effectively, the advantage of the heatsink becomes irrelevant, but the drawback of the temperature gradient from CPU to fin still remains. At this point, I reckon an air CPU cooler becomes counter-productive.


Using radiator fins to increasing the surface area in contact with the oil by ~20x (2000%) is much more effective than moving oil which is slightly cooler (a few degrees out of 80 is less than 10%) over to the bare chip.

It could be that the truth is somewhere between the two extremes. Certainly, an air CPU cooler will be far bigger than it needs to be in oil, but it could well be that the surface area of the CPU alone wouldn't be enough and a small heatsink is still needed. If that turned out to be the case, then the kind of thing I'm thinking of would be a water-cooling block with the lid taken off. If you want to be extremely cautious, you could leave the lid on and use a pump, leaving the inlet of the pump and the outlet of the block open, effecively giving a standard liquid cooling system, but submerged. Surely this *has* to narrow the gap between the oil temperature and the CPU temperature over what you'd get with an air cooler. My gut feeling though, is that you could narrow it even further by having no metalwork between the CPU and the oil at-all.



I am assuming that:
* the heat transfer coefficient from chip to radiator is much better than from chip to oil
This is the most intersting one. My theory depends on this being the other way round.:p

* the heat transfer coefficients from chip to oil, and from radiator to oil, are close or equal
Can't argue there, but aren't you also assuming that the heat transfer from metal to oil is not much better than that from metal to air?
I reckon liquids are enormously better at exchanging heat with solid objects than gases are. This is why, for example, air-cooled engines need masses of fins whilst liquid-cooled ones don't. Likewise, CPU water blocks have minimal or no internal fins in contact with the water.

* I've got a handle on the way heat works. Could be wrong ;-)
Yep. I'm having to make the same assumption. I'd love to actually know which of us is right. It seems that all we really disagree on is the extent to which oil makes a better heat tranfer medium than air. I guess the only way to settle that one would be to do some experiments...

Cheers,

Gary.

[mekatoronikusu]

if motherboard n all those things in vacuum condition, what will happen?

[ObiQuiet]

Interesting discussion, Gary!


Yep. I'm having to make the same assumption. I'd love to actually know which of us is right. It seems that all we really disagree on is the extent to which oil makes a better heat tranfer medium than air. I guess the only way to settle that one would be to do some experiments...

Cheers,

Gary.

Somehow I never seem to have a trained engineer on staff for these little projects I get into... :-)

I will be extracting a sacrificial motherboard from an old system today, making one step closer to being able to experiment...

Likewise Cheers,
ObiQuiet

[goetic]

Ok here is my story.
About a two months ago i saw the youtube video about this system. I instantly new i had to do this. I work in a pc repair shop so getting the parts wouldnt be a big deal, A few weeks later I had my aquarium, which I got from walmart for 35 bucks. I built my core 2 duo system in the aquarium and set it up to run as a movie server which I remote accessed into (so no monitor just a clean aquarium sitting). It ran at 50c solid with no additional cooling (just a bubbler). It has been running smooth for about 4 weeks now. Well today I come home and my wife is screaming! I run upstairs and my floor is covered in mineral oil. My aquarium cracked and leaked 2.5 gallons of mineral oil onto my carpet.

Today was a warmer day than usual in the 60'sF and the room isnt air conditioned. I am wondering if anyone has heard of a plastic aquarium cracking under heat. Like I said the system has ran at 50C rock solid for weeks now. Can a slightly warmer day cause this to heat this up so much that it can crack?

Anyways Im actually really sad now. I had put alot of work into it, (not to mention money, that oil is like 15 bucks a gallon now). All my components are likely fried, judging by the heat that the oil was when I found it.

I am guessing that with only half the components submerged things started to get even hotter after the case cracked.

If you guys want ill post some pics of the build.

*sigh*

Joshua

[PCC-Wilson]

goetic-

I'm sorry to hear that! If you do have some pictures of your build when it was not leaking, we definately like to remember the good ole days!

[ObiQuiet]

Ok here is my story.

That's awful - so sorry to hear!

Could torsion have played a role in the failure? If the tank wasn't sitting square on the ground, the weight of the oil would cause a twisting force.

What brand / type of tank did you use?

[goetic]

Here is some pic's of the late aquarium pc,

Kinda messy, pics were taken mid building/setting up

http://i663.photobucket.com/albums/uu358/goetic123/P2030054.jpg

http://i663.photobucket.com/albums/uu358/goetic123/P2030057.jpg

http://i663.photobucket.com/albums/uu358/goetic123/P2030044.jpg

was built with the same tank that this site suggests the eclipse 6 gallon one, although i did buy it from walmart.com and it was only 30 dollars.

[Gary Boldie]

Interesting discussion, Gary!


Somehow I never seem to have a trained engineer on staff for these little projects I get into... :-)

I will be extracting a sacrificial motherboard from an old system today, making one step closer to being able to experiment...

Likewise Cheers,
ObiQuiet

Sounds interesting. How much money would it take to keep quiet if my theory turns out to be wrong?;)

Cheers,

Gary.

[Gary Boldie]

My aquarium cracked and leaked 2.5 gallons of mineral oil onto my carpet.

That's a real bas**rd. You have my sympathies. Hopefully a fair amount will be salvagable.

Just a thought - could it be a compatibility problem between the plastic and the oil? I guess not as there sems to be a few systems out there now, but you never know. Is there any sign of micro-cracking on the aquarium besides the crack that let the oil out?

Cheers,

Gary.

[david.kang]

so i kept reading this thread to see if anyone asked my question already
but ive read through 16 pages and no1 has asked the question
ionno if this is a stupid or not but here it goes
i know the external cooling systems attach those metal plates to the cpu and the gpu
but is it still used in that manner for this computer?
wouldnt it be easier if the cooling system just cooled the mineral oil?

[Gary Boldie]

i know the external cooling systems attach those metal plates to the cpu and the gpu
but is it still used in that manner for this computer?
wouldnt it be easier if the cooling system just cooled the mineral oil?

From looking at the original Puget article, I think they do exactly as you say and pump the oil from the tank directly through the radiator. The CPU and GPU have ordinary air coolers. This setup is all tested and working though (as you can probably tell from my previous posts) if I were making a system, I'd try out some other ways...

Cheers,

Gary.

[gahz]

finally finished mine. took forever to get all the parts in (not from puget as they shipped the tank pretty fast).

http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/8503/1000480w.jpg

sorry bout the low resolution of the vid but i wanted it to be friendly in size
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2THnMwxl5Q

only bad thing really is that the tank was too small to accomodate my psu. you defin want a larger aquarium if you plan on running newer equipment and a 1000+ watt psu.

[greenchev89]

Hey guys, the name is tyler. i have had one of these systems for about a year and a half and figured I might join this forum. I was running a 3.0 ghz P4 with a geforce 6200 and duel tv tuner card. it ran at a stedy 60C which i hated. then if i was pushing it hard it would go to 85C. i was using it as a MythTv server so i was constantly transcoding. the sad thing is comcast changed to digital my analog card will not work :( so i have a comcast DVR box and can hook it up to my system so i figured out how to fix it luckly. so after that i decided i would upgrade. so now i have a Intel 2.6 duel core PC 6200 ram. The only bad thing is the video card. its an old ATI 9200. I had a Geforce 8600 GT but i found out they dont cooperate with my new ASUS P5Q motherboard. Now ever more good news to my pleasant surprise my system runs at 35C. it goes to about 38C when im working it. but i also have a low end video card and the other thing is i have a 10 GAL tank so that might help displace more heat.

so a quick question i have a limited budget like $100 to $150 what is a god video card?
thanks
Tyler

[Neowodahs]

Hi everyone, I just recently decided to get a puget DIY kit for my submerged project. I have to say it's worked perfectly so-far, everything runs great under the oil. The main question I have is about pumps. I tried using a pump for water-cooling, a Thermaltake P500, and it simply won't move oil at all. It pumps water perfectly so I know the pump isn't dead. The question then is who knows of a pump that will move oil for sure? Specifically what pump did Puget use for their version 2? It looks like a Koolance PMP400 but I'd rather not buy another pump that just makes noise with oil :).

[ObiQuiet]

everything runs great under the oil

Can I ask how much oil you actually used? I need to order it, but don't know if I need more or less than 5x 1 gallon.

(BTW, I'm getting closer to getting mine done. I fried the sacrificial motherboard in a way Id rather not explain, so now being careful with the real one.)

[Neowodahs]

Can I ask how much oil you actually used? I need to order it, but don't know if I need more or less than 5x 1 gallon.

(BTW, I'm getting closer to getting mine done. I fried the sacrificial motherboard in a way Id rather not explain, so now being careful with the real one.)

I used exactly 5 gallons to fill it up to the black lid line. This was with a huge powersupply (even gutted) and a Radeon 4870x2, so your parts might not displace quite as much as mine did.

[tornvidia]

Hello everyone!
Having red all the topic I came up to an interesting question(it was already mentioned here, but the answer was not quit clear)- the thing is why not using the submerged CpU without a heatsink? We all know that Cpu contacts with the heatsink via thermalpaste, sometimes because of it the contact can be rather bad cousing high temperatures, also it takes some time for the heatsink to heat up(because of the "t.paste").
So if you try to take away the heatsink from the CPU I don't think that Cpu will burn, cuz it will have a direct contat with the oil(and we all know that oil transfer heat 10 times faster then the air), also if you us Intel P4 and higher- they all have protection from overheating so 99% is that nothing wrong will happen with the CPU.
From my point of view you may have even lower temps using your hardware without heatsinks. Just give a it try- starting from CPU. By the way you can redirect the cold oil from the radiator towards the Cpu for a better cooling (without a heatsink).
P.S Thanks Puget for a great idea!

[ObiQuiet]

...an interesting question(it was already mentioned here, but the answer was not quit clear)- the thing is why not using the submerged CpU without a heatsink?

Try this experiment (as a thought experiment or for real):
* Put one of those coffee-cup heating elements in the oil, or suspend a soldering iron it it. That will represent the CPU.
* Turn on the heating element
* Note how long it will take for the oil in contact with the element to boil -- bubbles will appear.

Convection (i.e. hot oil flowing away, replaced by cooler oil) does not happen fast enough overcome the heat right at the element and prevent the boiling. Nor does all the oil have to reach boiling before the oil right at the surface of the element does. That probably doesn't surprise anyone.

2nd phase:
* Cool everything down again.
* Now, attach a heatsink radiator to the heating element. Ideally, one with a surface area 20-40 times the element itself.
* Turn on the heating element.

What do we expect to happen in the 2nd part of the test?
a) If we expect it to take longer for the oil in contact with the metal to boil, then I think we can also expect that the CPU would run cooler with the heat sink.
b) If we expect no significant change in the time-to-boil, then I think we would also have to admit that the heatsink won't do any good on the CPU.

I expect (a). Of course, everyone is free to draw their own conclusion from the thought experiment. Also of course, this version isn't a perfect duplicate of the CPU heating question, but maybe it will help you get your mind around the phenomenon and determine what you think will happen.

-ObiQuiet

[Gary Boldie]

Try this experiment (as a thought experiment or for real):

Still an un-beleiver I see :devil

I'm afraid this won't get you any closer to the truth if done as a thought experiment. It's completely based on what you expect to happen, so it'll just re-inforce whatever view you already have.

If doing it for real, you will need to be very careful not to mislead yourself. As you point out, it's not a perfect model of a CPU. In fact, it differs in a crucial respect. We already know that whether or not convection can give effective cooling depends on the ratio of power to surface area. Neither of your two examples are likely to to be close to the W/sq mm value of a typical CPU.
CPUs themselves vary over a wide range anyway. I'd quite happily put a lot of money on a piddly 50W CPU working without problems, naked and in un-stirred oil. A 250W monster might need a little extra help though. I'd still have a little bet on it needing no more than a pump to blow oil at it though.

Still, from your other posts, it sounds like you'll soon have the ideal test-bed. :)

Cheers,

Gary.

[Grullun]

Greetings,
this is my story of my oil sinked aquarium pc. i was inspired and totally fascinated by a youtube video of your pc built. i was actually bored at work and was looking for something new :) for i live in europe ( austria ) and i am relly into building stuff on my own, icouldn't just order a finished one from you so i made up my own 'design'. although my wife is pretty tolerant i had to involve her in the design and production as well.
i wanted to sink my actual hardware which is in short:
intel q9550, asus mb, 8 gigs ram, ati 4870, 3 HDD ( 200gb samsung, 200gb western digital and a 74gb raptor ), one DVD drive, SB soundcard, enermax psu.
First i was looking for an aquarium without any top box, for i was planning to build one myself ( painted wood ). those are actually pretty cheap you can find those in any pet store.
I found a standard sized aquarium with 60 liters, which is about 15.8 Gallons.
It costed 28€ which is about 39 us $.
The most difficult thing was to find the suitable oil. there are some alternatives like silicon based oils, but those are extremely expensive for i needed a little more due to the bigger aquarium. i finally found a 'medical oil' which is pretty similar to the one you used in the youtube video, it is also a basis for purgatives for horses :) ( it matched all the other requirements needed for a long lasting construction like crystal clear, non smelling, non poisioning, water suppresive and so on )
i bought 16 gallons for about 290 us $
http://www.mmporg-universe.de/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1334.0;attach=577; image
due to the larger volume of the aquarium i was tempered to not use a pump and a radiator and let the cooling happen just by the large surface. i am happy i didn't !
the day before the construction i got a little cowardish and bought a normal water cooling pump, the hoses and a 2x12 cm fan radiator ( as it turned out: lucky me ).

i started with a pedestal made from wood, a little higher than my desk, painted that one black, put the aquarium on top and built a topcase about 6 inch high to fit in:
3 hdds, 1 optical drive, waterpump, airpump, of course the motherboard connectors, fan controller, 1 fan, the hoses and all the wires.
http://www.mmporg-universe.de/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1334.0;attach=575; image
http://www.mmporg-universe.de/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1334.0;attach=579; image
http://www.mmporg-universe.de/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1334.0;attach=599; image

Of course i added some 'sand' lights and so on. i kept the fans on the CPU and GFX card, i also kept the PSU closed due to the fine golden looks.
while filling it up, i found out that i didn't need all 16 gallons, i actually needed only something around 11.
http://www.mmporg-universe.de/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1334.0;attach=614; image
http://www.mmporg-universe.de/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1334.0;attach=616; image
http://www.mmporg-universe.de/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1334.0;attach=620; image
The last image is the whole thing finished and working.
I hope all the imges are working, more details in the follow up post.

greets

[Grullun]

Some details now, for i feared my previous posting might get too large, sorry.
on the last pic you can see that i cut out a slot for the optical drive so i can access it easily.
the radiator is mounted on the left rear of the top case. i removed the previous wood rear and simply fit in the radiator as a 'rear wall'. the benefit is that the hot air produced by the 3 HDDs inside the top case is ventilated through the radiator and therefore kept cool enough.
as you can see i built this in february ( winter ) so i had no experiences conserning the temperatures in summer time.
temperature was my concern all the way. i did some pretty long stress tests ( 5-9 hours 100% graphic and CPU load ) and found that the oil itself would heat up to about 52°C which is something around 126° F. the gfx card would heat up to around 58°C ( 136° F ), the CPU cores around 54°C ( 130° F ).
I was happy with that until we had some 28° C ( 82° F ) in the room.
i couldn't keep the temperatures mentioned above the whole thing just heated up more and more. so i had to replace the slow fans ( 1000 turns per minute ) on the radiator and use faster ones 2000. i used my fan control to run them at about 9-10 volts which keeps the temperatures stable again and i have so room for hot summer days.

All in all I don't regret it all.
it is a very nice looking, silent and cool system. <60° C for the GPU and CPU with hours of 100% load is really fine. i used those rubber bolts for 5 1/4 inch cases for all 3 HDDs, i mountes the water pump on rubber as well, the air pump is 'hung' on rubber, the optical drive is based on rubber as well so no vibration is taken to the case.
I don't know what happens if any of the hardware inside breaks down, changing that would be a pretty mess, but i don't think about that for now.
by the way, once in place the filled aquarium is pretty impossible to move, it is just too heavy.

So thx a lot guys for the inspiration and ideas i got from your construction. I am really happy to have done this project and it turned out to be a great one !

[ObiQuiet]

The Puget instructions are correct -- mounting the power supply is the most difficult part.

What I came up with was to use a soft plastic DVD shell/case as a bendable "mounting bracket". By measuring and cutting it to fit, it doesn't show much, and takes the weight of the PSU off the MB connectors.

One side of the shell is attached to the bottom of the vertical part of the Puget acrylic frame using the mounting holes at the bottom right.

The other side of the shell has the PSU board mounted on it, using four screws through the PC board.

In between is the "hinge" part of the DVD shell. This allows the PSU to sit flat upright when in the tank. When you lift the acrylic frame out, it drops down to hang vertically below the MB.

-ObiQuiet

[Ericso]

Hi everyone here, I am from Hong Kong.

My friends and I are planning doing this amazing project!

But we consider about the safety of this project.

We decide to use white mineral oil for the project,but we discover that mineral oil has a application of Firespinning.

Does it mean mineral oil is easy to burn on fire?:eek:

I am afarid of the fire crack when the system is turning on, will it light the mineral oil to burn?

Is it need to fill in the oil when the computer is on?I see all of the guys on youtube do that:(

Thank you for reply and I know that my english isn't good at all....:O(
I hope all of you can understand what I am talking about.

[Zyzomys]

Unfortunately, It would seem the aquarium provided in this kit is not structurally sound enough to hold mineral oil, instead of water. The aquarium has been sitting on my desk filled with mineral oil for about a week, that entire time turned off. Today when i came home from work i noticed a small crack down the side of the aquarium and a puddle of oil on my desk. Which doesn't make much sense to me, since I assume mineral oil, like most oils, is lighter than water. However the simple fact that some of these aquariums could be less structurally sound than others causes me concern. I would strongly advise anyone interested in this project to find something a bit more sturdy, than the aquarium provided in this DIY kit.

[ObiQuiet]

will it light the mineral oil to burn?

You can read all about the safety and the fire temperatures here:
http://www.steoil.com/msds_sheets.asp#70FG

I recommend you have a plan for clean up and disposal before starting the project -- search the web for "oil spill kit" to have one ready in case you have an accident or a leak :-(
Edit: see http://www.absorbentsonline.com/spillkits.htm

I have also wondered if an electrical spark from the mains could set it off. Easy to try in a bowl, I suppose. Not a problem under normal operations.

[ObiQuiet]

I've completed mine now, and have about 20 hours of run time on it.

Some notes:
a) Used the Puget lucite frame -- highly recommended. Contriving a frame myself didn't work out and was frustrating, not to mention wobbly, etc. Of course if you're not going to use the same tank, then you still have to come up with a frame.

b) Suggestion to Puget: add bolt holes for screw eyes at each corner of the top of the frame to support lifting it in and out from above. Using a step-ladder as an A-frame above the tank and some supporting wires will make upgrades and repairs easier.

c) This project is a lot like building a ship in a bottle. You have to carefully plan to make sure you assemble things in the right order. Once the oil is in, it's very inconvenient to go back and do something you forgot (like remove a sticker, re-route a wire, add another SATA cable...)

d) I attached the PSU to a cut-up plastic DVD box, which was also attached to the frame. This makes all the electronics come in and out as one piece and I don't have to worry about putting weight on any wiring.

e) The PSU plus frame was too tall for the aquarium and the gravel, so I had to make a tray for the PSU to sit in, which would keep the gravel out. This works great, since the tray is mounted on a surface and is held in place by the gravel.

f) I tried a number of ways to keep the hose and bubble bar in place under the gravel. Finally settled on zip-ties and metal nailing plates. The hose is tied to the plate, the plate sits on the very bottom of the tank, and the gravel firmly held it all in place, no matter how many "test fits" I did with the PC frame and other parts. I don't recommend glue (of any kind - I tried many) due to the heat and oil.

g) At idle, this unit gets up to 73C. I hadn't really thought much ahead of time about what temperatures in the 60-80C range actually mean -- it's twice human body temperature, and the PC is a real heat radiator! Not a problem per say, but a bit eye-opening when you don't know what kind of heat you're about to be dealing with ;-). I have not tried any extreme load tests yet.

h) Mil-spec semi-conductors are rated to 125C, which I never hope to see. Does any one know the general rating for today's commercial-grade parts? (I put a lot of stock in Puget's reports of rock-solid stability at their reported temps, so I don't expect any problems.)

i) I do not have an external radiator on mine (yet?). Too bad it's not coming on to winter in the northern hemisphere, or I'm sure the cats would like to curl up near this PC. You can feel it warm your hand from half a meter away.

j) I chose blue and blue for the power and HDD LEDs -- makes the tank shimmer a bit when the HDD flashes. A neat follow up project would be to add a module which used the HDD light signal to drive a set of LEDs and make them pulse more slowly (fade on and off over 1-2s instead of flash).

k) I put the tank on a wheeled wooden plant tray on the floor. This is a solid platform. This makes it possible to move it without lifting, tipping, sloshing or twisting the tank.

I should say that this was an excellent project -- a number of interesting mechanical design challenges, mixed with physics experiments and a bit of an art project too!

[Gary Boldie]

Excellent news. Congratulations on getting it all up and running. :thumbsup

It sounds like it should be relatively easy to bring down the temperature if you want to, but I wouldn't worry too much at 70ish degrees (I take it that's from the internal CPU sensor rather than the CPU case temperature).

How does the oil temperature compare with the CPU temperature?

Cheers,

Gary.

[ObiQuiet]

I take it that's from the internal CPU sensor rather than the CPU case temperature). How does the oil temperature compare with the CPU temperature?

Yes, that's right, it's the CPU temp. I don't have a scientific reading of the oil temp yet, working on it though. More later.

[Grullun]

Congratulations,
I for myself would actually be worried a little, because 70°C seems pretty hot, but you might be right, as long as you don't get any peek temepratures way above that.
For the oil temperature you can help yourself by using a software that displays the motherboard sensors as well. I use Speedfan software for example. It displys a lot temperatures, if it gains access to them which is different with most of the manufacturers.
There is sensor on the motherboard which displays as 'system'. This is the temperature measureing the motherboard temperature on the surface, which inside a usual air cooled PC would be the air temperature inside the case. Submerged it is the oil temperature, or pretty close to it's actual temperature which might vary for a few °C but not much.
Small simple tool, you might want to give it a try e.g. from here:
http://www.almico.com/sfdownload.php

greets G

[ObiQuiet]

Here's a follow-up on my edition of this project.

a) Last weekend the tank developed a crack from a top corner down toward the bottom corner. It was not a catastrophic failure, but I'm very glad I noticed it quickly.

b) I had given some thought to how I'd handle a leak, so I was somewhat prepared. Despite that it took some quick & slippery work with buckets, siphon hoses and booster pumps to "stabilize the situation". I strongly recommend that you think about the equipment you'll need in case you must safely evacuate the oil. That oil is hot when you have to immerse your hand into it!

c) I managed to save nearly all of the oil, losing only 0.3 liter or so. I am glad I didn't have to use the spill kit, which will block and absorb the oil -- that's for a real catastrophe.

d) I've now replaced the Eclipse tank with a standard 10 gallon glass tank.

e) I've kept the Puget frame, and moved the PC to the new tank with no issues, other than having to cut & fit supports for the PC frame and to fit the hood the tank came with. Even if you don't use the Eclipse tank, I recommend finding a way to use the Puget frame.

f) Clearing the oil: After the emergency, the oil was pretty cloudy -- didn't have time to fully clean the buckets. An earlier question on this forum was about using the built in filter to clean it -- I can say that the filter the new tank came with worked really well for cleaning out the oil. I did have to add a submerged booster pump to help it (another small pump in series with the intake pump for the filter). There was _no_ splashing oil from the filter spillway back into the tank.

g) Of course, the larger tank requires more oil. I now have 7 gallons, minus the little bit lost. May add 1/2 or so more.

h) @Grullun: Thanks for the tip re: Speedfan. I was using it already, but couldn't tell which sensor was the best for the oil temp. On my system it may be the one called "Core" (?).

i) At the moment, the CPU is at 62C, while the "core" is 12C less, at 50C. That seems about right given the temp the glass seems to be at. Not sure how hot I'll let it get today, though -- I should probably wait to do a stress test on this new set up.

j) During assembly of the first tank set up I was careful not to bind or twist the plastic tank, due to earlier leak reports. I do not know what caused this crack -- it was high up, the tank was level and had not moved in the days before it happened.

[BusoRenkin]

Lol wow.. long time I haven't posted. Anyways, I got a weird idea that I would like to share.

The other day I went shopping at Home Depot when I found a pump going for about $14 that makes waterfalls. Of course this is intended to be used for landscape, but is it possible to use this pump to evenly distribute the heat that the oil collects around the case while dissipating the heat through metal pipes protruding from the back of the case, like a cheap radiator of some sort?

If this works, not only do you have a cheap cooling solution, but a pretty nice effect to go along with the entire aquarium theme.

[aikigi]

Hello,
Here is some picture of my submerged computer,
I designe the case to fit inside everything so no mess around...
I will add more pictures and video soon.

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/9ia_8sNYmQbg_4eE5otPkg?feat=directlink

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/Vhaf-XYQpKSrLLmMNiruWw?feat=directlink

[ObiQuiet]

Here is some picture of my submerged computer

Very nice case! What is it constructed from?

ObiQuiet

[aikigi]

Very nice case! What is it constructed from?

ObiQuiet


I design the case... it's made of acrylic.

Coming soon a google site with more infos and pictures.

[devan69]

ok 40 someodd posts still thumbing through hoping i find the answer so i don't have to ask but i give up. All i keep findin is more stuff makign em want to do this more and more lol.

any found a cheaper way to cool the oil in the tank? i wanna build this but i can't afford 200+ bucks on a radiator for it. and i dont really wanna half XXX this and make the tank without a way to keep it cool. I wanna do this cause 1 it looks cool and 2 it will help run cooler in which means better performance.

also does the tank need to be as sealed off as possible or would leaving slit along the top to allow wires to go through make the heat worse? like this..

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the thin line on top would be the opening for the wires on the lid. bottom would be acrylic lid in which i would mount my HDD and my CD-Rom. since i was going to use a 10 gallon fish tank i was gonna line the top with my hd and cd-rom on one side and then other side would be the conections for my monitor and everything. so would having the small opening from side to side along the back side of the top of the tank make the heat worse or better?

[FireMedic]

i have to wonder how my rig would do in this aquarium, im considering getting the kit and converting everything into it, (790i ultra, q9450 @3.4ghz, 4 gigs g.skill ddr3 1600, 2x 9800gx2's in sli) my only concern would be the amount of heat that is generated by the gpu's alone is insane, a way to combat this i was thinking of having a separate pump to hit specific hot spots, just use splitters and run lines near the heat sinks to specifically target these areas, there by replacing the fans on the gpus and run a 3/8" line just on the inside of the opening (obviously some modification needed with the case of the gpu but should work pretty good i would think, considering the card vents 90% of its heat out of the side of the card expelling heat into the case rather than outside the card {leave it to nvidia}) all depends on how much heat will be absorbed by it in benchmarking, very cool kit though ill definitely give it a try soon as i have a chance, or replacement parts on the slight chance that something goes terribly wrong :D

[aikigi]

Hello,

Here is the link for my google/site with some informatios, pictures and video on my submerged computer.

http://sites.google.com/site/aikigicomputer/Home

Please let me know what you think about it...

[Grullun]

Excellent design !
I really like the complete see trough design, even in the top section where the hdds and the optical drives are located. Disadvantage of that is of course you have to take care of all the wires so that they don't look messy :)
I like the wheel cart under the whole construction as well.
Did you mount 'water cooling' blocks on the GPU and run the oil through there ?
I am asking this, because in case of an upgrade of my GPU i am thinking of replacing the standard air cooler by a 'water cooling' block and run the oil through there to keep the temperature of the GPU lower.

Over all grats to the design, looks brilliant !

greets G

[aikigi]

Hi,

Everything is in the oil... I left the GPU as is.
The top part is a bit messy with all the cables... but I plan after few weeks of testing to clean everything and custom it a bit more... (cable, lighting...)

Thanks for the feedback.

[tech2480]

Hello,

This would be my first post on this forum. So thank you in advance for all the info provided. Has anyone done or know of an oil cooled Mac? I saw one on YouTube by a 7th grader for a science project but anymore?

[Grullun]

I think MAC or PC wouldn't be different at all, for MAC has Intel CPU and ATI gfx cards ( standard components ). I am not sure wether MAC uses standard wire connectors ( e.g. SATA ) but i think they do. For you have to have the hdds outside the oil you might have to use longer SATA wires to connect the ( depends on where the SATA is located on the motherboard and the size of your construction ). Maybe the same for the optical drive if it is connected via IDE. I had to buy longer wires, the standard wires supplied were way too short.
Apart from that, there shouldn't be any difference to a PC.


greets G

[mongoose]

Okay, so I promised myself to read the entire thread... and I made to it to page 27 (edit: I just discovered the pages are from newest to oldest, so I've read the most recent 27 pages). Anyway, up to that point I have not seen anyone suggest what seems to me a very simple and powerful method for removing heat from the mineral oil: ice packs! To give you an idea, here's a quote from the world's most maligned encyclopedia:

An ice pack (commonly used therapeutically) is a plastic sac of crushed or cubed ice, refrigerant gel or liquid, or even frozen vegetables. The refrigerant, usually non-toxic, can absorb a considerable amount of heat, since its specific heat capacity is high.

So the idea is, pop a frozen ice pack in your mineral oil at peak times or just every now and again to suck up some of that heat, then exchange it for a new one and let the freezer take the heat from the ice pack and so on. If you keep a small freezer box near your computer it could be very simple (with a properly designed lid) to exchange ice packs whenever you wanted to. It seems to me that this would be a cheap, easy, and effective way to quickly remove heat from the oil. So, just for fun, I'll sketch out where the heat goes: components > mineral oil > ice pack > freezer > room...

Thanks for reading!

[PCC-Jon]

I wonder if you can make mineral oil ice cubes :)

[ObiQuiet]

An ice pack...

Interesting idea! I see some advantage, but a concern is the condensation on the outside of the ice pack -- it wouldn't be good to get any water into the oil. If you seal the ice pack into another bag immedately before popping into the tank, you may be able to keep moisture out.

Also, thinking about separating the ice from the oil got me to thinking about heat exchangers, which then led to thinking about thermosiphons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermosiphon). These are silent, and you could create one that had a bin for ice through which the oil would flow in tubing.

Just might try that... I have a half-submerged passive heat sink now which lowers the temp only 0.1C, if that.

The MSDS says "not applicable" for the freezing point of Mineral Oil, though I'm sure the transition to a solid is down there somewhere before you get to -273C... anyone have liquid N2 on hand? (Just being curious, I put a bottle in the freezer a moment ago.)

Cheers!

[mongoose]

Yes, protecting the ice packs from condensation with bags would be fairly critical, but once you have that down the system seems fail-safe.

Thermosiphons seem like they would operate better as the heat increases. It seems you want something that works well at very low temperatures. Besides, the case will act like a thermosiphon naturally: the hot oil rises, cools, and sinks, so putting an ice pack in would be somewhat "thermosiphonic" as the it will essentially cause a downdraft of cooled oil and will suck up the updraft of hot oil.

[aikigi]

Hello,
Here two pictures of my computer.

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_V-xI3C9l9gU/SiGjYQ_gcFI/AAAAAAAAByY/icwSy37Ri5g/s400/DSC_0070.JPG

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_V-xI3C9l9gU/SiGjY2Z4p5I/AAAAAAAAByM/-AlNtbd2zDk/s400/DSC_0068.JPG

I run it for about 1 month and 2 weeks and I have to said it is perfect.
It's nearly silent (The most noisy is the hard drive...!!) and it cool very well...

More pictures and videos...

http://sites.google.com/site/aikigicomputer/Home


This ice pack is an interesting idea but I don't see myself changing it every 30 minute, cleaning it... but maybe using the ice pack to help cooling the radiator... would be easier.

To continue...

[mongoose]

Damn, son, that's one hell of a computer! I like the big side fan.

As for the ice pack, it would probably be easiest to put it inside a plastic box for freezing. Bags are difficult to work with with condensation on them especially. Two things you could do to mitigate maintenance needs: get a big ice pack so it lasts longer, and get a mini-freezer to set next to your computer. Also remember, that under normal conditions the ice packs aren't really necessary. Just when things get a little warm you pop one in to suck out some of the heat. With the high heat capacity of the oil the effect should be profound and long lasting. Of course I'm not suggesting it is as convenient as a radiator or something, but I have yet to hear or think of something as effective at a comparable price/effort. The ROI, if you will, seems really high.

[Grullun]

For it is getting pretty hot nowadays in my place i am thinking of further ways to cool the oil.
I use a 2 fan radiator already, but if you have about 30°C in the room and another 50°C right next you, it is getting too hot in my room.
I don't think i can decrease the overall temperature, but i might keep the comp parts cooler.
I have experimented with some OC as well which worked pretty fine until summer hit mid europe :()
Maybe someone has heard of or even experimented with Peltier cooling elemnts ?
The basis functionality may be explained here:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermoelectric_cooling
I didn't look for links of markets selling those, because i have no idea which markets are US is common. I found an international .pdf where most of the data is in english as well.
http://www2.produktinfo.conrad.com/datenblaetter/175000-199999/189184-da-01-ml-PELTIER_ELEMENT_QC_127_2_0_15_0M_de_en.pdf
The price is not that bad, a 110W thermo element would be somewhere around 70 $ ( about 50 € ) it is said to work on 15,5 V which would certainly be ok to be powdered with 12V from the computer PSU, although there are certainly some specified for 12 V as well.
So the functionality is: one side of the plate is the hot side, the other one the cold side.
So might there be an idea of how to install this pretty small plate so that the cold side is within the oil, the hot side outside and able to release the heat without a heat accumulation ?
For my PC case is a glass aquarium, i just can not mount it into a sidewall which would propably be very effective. I was thinking about constructing some kind of raft / float and mount the element in there to be in touch with the cold side with the oil.

Any experiences with these elements from any of you ?
Maybe some mounting ideas ? ( remember, my fishtank is glass, not acrylic )
Maybe some pros have some ideas suggestions or arguments against the idea ?
I would really appreciate any comment on this idea, for i am on holiday till sunday and might put this idea into reality.

thx and greets G

[aikigi]

Hi,

I just change a little bit how was the radiator/fan install.
I live 2 1/2 inch between the case and the radiator and I invert the airflow direction of the fan.

I run prime95 for 4 hours: (room temperature is 27 oC)

after few minutes : cpu temp 54 oC, system 29 oC

after 3 hours : cpu temp 68 oC, system 35 oC

after 4 hours : cpu temp 68 oC, system 34 oC.

When I stop the test, the cpu temp drop to 49 oC...

( spec : intel Q6600 at 3ghz, 4 go corsair dominator 1066, evga 8800gts overclock)

I think that the same cooling system with 9x120mm fan would bring the temp even lower...




Hello,
Here two pictures of my computer.

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_V-xI3C9l9gU/SiGjYQ_gcFI/AAAAAAAAByY/icwSy37Ri5g/s400/DSC_0070.JPG

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_V-xI3C9l9gU/SiGjY2Z4p5I/AAAAAAAAByM/-AlNtbd2zDk/s400/DSC_0068.JPG

I run it for about 1 month and 2 weeks and I have to said it is perfect.
It's nearly silent (The most noisy is the hard drive...!!) and it cool very well...

More pictures and videos...

http://sites.google.com/site/aikigicomputer/Home


This ice pack is an interesting idea but I don't see myself changing it every 30 minute, cleaning it... but maybe using the ice pack to help cooling the radiator... would be easier.

To continue...

[russellbabe]

that is really cool looking. great job on that!

[Necromas]

For using ice packs, assuming you are using a radiator, why not just use the ice to cool the radiator itself? Or if you have a freezer close enough, extend the lines and keep the radiator inside the freezer! Although if you actually put the radiator in the freezer you'd have to make sure it doesn't raise your freezer temp too much but you should be able to get away with it depending on how powerful your freezer can go on the max setting.

Is there any feedback from people who bought the actual kits? I'm not too keen on scanning 48 pages of posts for it.

Anyways, it looks like the main drawback with oil cooling, besides the mess, is that you are cooling the entire motherboard and all submerged components evenly, making it hard to focus on particular hot spots, and venting more heat out the radiator than water cooling only specific components or less efficient air cooling.

How long until someone makes an oil cooled, self contained laptop? The biggest problem would probably be having enough room for an efficient heat exchange, and very careful sealing.

[ObiQuiet]

Is there any feedback from people who bought the actual kits? I'm not too keen on scanning 48 pages of posts for it.

I'm using the frame from the kit in another tank -- I recommend it. It's cut to fit the Eclipse tank, but if you're using another you only have to figure out how to support the top. That's much easier to engineer (my experience) than an off-the-shelf frame, since the kit frame is flat and solid (and transparent!). I used a stiff wire grate that is cut to fit the tank, with a cut-out in the middle to fit the frame and PC through.

If using the Eclipse 6 tank that comes with the kit, it's very important to always keep the black upper frame piece on it when it's full of liquid (of any kind). This is the black rim that supports the fish tank pump, etc. With out that support, the tank walls flex visibly, and I suspect that's the cause of the reported tank failures (including mine). The fish tank manual says this, but not loud enough.

To be extra safe with that kit tank, you might consider some other way to provide front-to-back stiffening, since that cross member part of the upper frame has to be cut for the Puget PC frame and the attached computer to pass through. Maybe even just epoxy the upper frame to the tank top.

-ObiQuiet

[carlobee]

wow. this is really a cool and brilliant idea. hope i had that one. http://storeyourpicture.com/images/signature_PC.jpg

[kusai]

I was looking to order one of your kits in the near future and just had a few questions for you:

1. How many sata/power pass throughs are included with the kit (the kit that includes the radiator)

2. How many sata ports are there per adapter?

3. According to the description, the power connector on the sata/power pass through is a 4-pin molex connector and not a 15-pin sata power connector. Do you need an adapter and if so, is it included or do you need an external power source like an external hardrive/cdrom case?

4. What is the harddrive bay capacity or the kit as shipped (I believe I read that you had one but there might be room for 2 HDs) and is there any capacity for cd-rom/dvd drives?

5. I noticed that the last time I was looking at the kit it was shipping with a Zalman Reserator but you have since switched to a magicool. Just curious why there was a change. Is there a benefit of the magicool over the Zalman?

Thanks in advance and I'm looking forward to ordering soon!

[rachelgreen]

I wondered if an electrical spark from the mains could set it off. Easy to try in a bowl, I suppose. Not a problem under normal operations.

[stopthe noise]

Can we get an update on the status of the original setup? Is that MB still functioning?

I'm extremely interested in building a hybrid, system. Where everything but the hard drives are submersed. Its too cost prohibitive to use SSDs for large storage needs.

I have 4 1U, 1 3U, and 1 4U servers running in the spared bedroom. The systems are running at around 36C, but the room is very loud.

I'm very interested in this technology for sound purposes, but I don't want to submerge 10K of servers in oil if the MB are going to fail.

Update please!

[PCC-Jon]

The original setup is still functioning and we are now running three setups at our office. None have failed at any time, and no hardware has ever failed. Pretty impressive, really. However, all of our original disclaimers still apply. We don't want any responsibility should your experiences be different than ours!

[davea0511]

6 months back there was a debate about whether the cpu heatsink helped or hurt and someone mentioned they wish they had an engineer on staff. Although it's been 15 years since I took Heat Transfer in my undergrad (and I'm a metallurgical/mechanical engineer), I do remember enough that my horse-sense is based on math and knowledge of metals, and I can give you an educated reply:

Relatively speaking, when compared with motionless oil, the thermal efficiency of a heat sink is high enough that the surface of a 30 fin heatsink with 4 in^2/fin will be within 5-20 degrees of the cpu temperature (depending on a ton of factors, from the heatsink design to the cpu conditions). So you can nearly consider the surface area of the heatsink as an extension of the CPU itself if you plan to be 20 degrees or more below the max operating temp for the CPU.

What this means is that you can do an EXTREMELY rough estimate of how much an aluminum heatsink is helping by taking a ratio of the areas of a heatsink vs. no heatsink. This works out to 30x4in^2:1in^2, or 120:1. In otherwords, THE MATH SAYS YOU'RE TOTALLY GOING TO FRY YOUR CPU if you try no-heatsink, unless you blast the cpu with a stream of the oil (like a water-cooled setup, but with oil).

I'm guessing that the guy who aggressively advocated disregarding the math to just try this in the real world fried his cpu this way. It's been 6 months since he last posted. That's what he gets for thinking heatsinks insulate.

If however you plan to pump a good velocity stream of oil directly onto the cpu it should work fine. Like I said, that's basically a watercooled system but you're using oil instead of water. However, please note that it should be LESS effective than a watercooled system because 1) mineral oil will hold onto a lot more heat than water does, and 2) mineral oil won't be going straight to the radiator.

So if you're going to the effort to replace the heatsink with a pump blasting oil on the cpu it seems you should forget the oil computer and just use a watercooled system, but that's just me. To me the coolness of this is that all you have to do is pull out drives, and drop the rest in oil. When you start adding pumps and all it looses it's coolness to me.

[davea0511]

The more I think about it I think it would be kind of cool to be able to see the CPU as it's operation, which as I said, you could do if you blasted it with oil. I'm not sure why it's cool because it's not like it's doing anything ... just the idea that you're looking at it while it's operating ... would be good as a demonstration for kids because otherwise they don't know what you mean when you point to this big heatsink and say: "that's the cpu".

I found a $12 submersible pump here:http://www.snakeestate.com/reptile-snake-supplies/waterfalls/exo-terra-repti-flo-200-waterfall-pump.html

It only has 20" of head though. Not sure that'd be enough, but I bet it would (keep the tube short and aimed at a 45 degree angle).

This pump may be enough to feed an oil-fall (like a waterfall) as a cooling mechanism instead of a radiator. Sure would be cheaper, and a lot cooler if you ask me!

I guess you could make your own pump with a cpu fan and a funnel too. Hmmmm ... something to think about.

[davea0511]

Okay, now I'm excited about using the cheapo submersible pump ($12) as an oil-fall pump instead of using a radiator ($200+). Compared to those indoor zen-like waterfalls, mineral oil is odorless, shouldn't evaporate like water, won't leave water deposits, and won't get moldy or slimy.

At just 30GPH for a 12 inch oil-fall length the Puget Systems 6 Gallon tank it would completely turn over the oil every 12 minutes. That should be plenty to keep the oil cool, if you use the right waterfall design. I thought I'd make one of pebbles embedded in cement, but now I'm thinking about a stack of homemade narrow-cut aluminum strips. Should be a piece of cake to do with my bandsaw.

Also, instead of a fish-tank I'm thinking of sinking the computer into an open aluminum-pan at the bottom of the waterfalls (better heat Xfer, much less oil required, so faster turn-over in the oilfalls, cheaper, and much more robust than glass or plastic). You'd still see the components through the top (rippled though because of the oil-falls), plus it's a computer masquerading as an artsy zen-like waterfall: priceless.

I'm also liking the idea of coating drives in silicone and submerging them to muffle the noise. Of course I'd back them up daily but honestly I don't think it's risky. Pure silicone should be 100% impervious to mineral oil.

Hey if anyone else wants to use these ideas feel free to do so (it would be awesome if puget systems made a kit like this).

Ps - - Note amazon.com has some pumps 2X as powerful at the one I linked to previously, for just a couple more $

[ObiQuiet]

someone mentioned they wish they had an engineer on staff.

That was me. Thanks for the nice explanation!

I very much like your waterfall idea!

-ObQ-

[kevanesh]

I think he's onto something! The only thing lacking is color. If only it could look like a Lava Lamp, with backlit blobs of colored oil descending those falls!

[davea0511]

I'm now thinking of just crimping an aluminum flashing (super cheap) like an accordion, and drip down that. Of course, the idea is to maximize surface area over a 12" drop. I may go with a larger pump and do an 18" drop. I have a metal brake, but the flashing is so thin you could probably do it with just a pizza cutter/ruler/rubbermat setup.

I suddenly got burdened with a big project though that will take another couple months so it looks like I'll have to put this temporarily on hold.
:(

But I have everything I need ... except time. Will keep you posted. Like I said, anyone else wants to try this, feel free. I like the dripping lava-lamp-goo idea, but you'll need to find 2 immiscible dielectric fluids with the dye in only one of the two fluids - good luck with that.

[davea0511]

I think he's onto something! The only thing lacking is color. If only it could look like a Lava Lamp, with backlit blobs of colored oil descending those falls!
I think this should be doable with mineral oil and an opaque Castor Oil (won't mix with mineral oil). To make opaque castor oil, mix CastorOil (32oz from luckyvitamin.com, $8) with TiO2 powder. Add a little Fe2O3 powder to make it reddish-orange. These are both electrically inert ceramic dyes (should stay that way in oil). Castor oil is very dielectric - used in capacitors and transformers

If all the pigment is first fully wetted by the Castor Oil hopefully it won't mix with the mineral oil. Then all you should need is a blacklight to make it glow (the TiO2). Castor oil should sink, which is good because then it won't cloud up with your mineral oil, just come out globy in the falls, plus, then all you need is a couple quarts if you put your pump in the bottom of the container to get the effect.

You might need to slow down all submerged fans to keep the fluids from intermixing too much.

[davea0511]

I wondered if an electrical spark from the mains could set it off. Easy to try in a bowl, I suppose. Not a problem under normal operations.
both Mineral oil and Castor Oil are used in transformers as "transformer oil" where they get much hotter than a CPU will ever generate. It's really very safe.

[kevanesh]

I can see it now. By modulating fan speed, or varying blade shape and size, you might be able to turn a knob to generate micro vs macro oil bubbles. Perhaps by using multiple dyes with different reflective or flourescent properties, one could turn another knob to change the chromatic effects. How cool would that be?:thumbsup


I think this should be doable with mineral oil and an opaque Castor Oil (won't mix with mineral oil). To make opaque castor oil, mix CastorOil (32oz from luckyvitamin.com, $8) with TiO2 powder. Add a little Fe2O3 powder to make it reddish-orange. These are both electrically inert ceramic dyes (should stay that way in oil). Castor oil is very dielectric - used in capacitors and transformers

If all the pigment is first fully wetted by the Castor Oil hopefully it won't mix with the mineral oil. Then all you should need is a blacklight to make it glow (the TiO2). Castor oil should sink, which is good because then it won't cloud up with your mineral oil, just come out globy in the falls, plus, then all you need is a couple quarts if you put your pump in the bottom of the container to get the effect.

You might need to slow down all submerged fans to keep the fluids from intermixing too much.

[bruin83]

Howdy,

Quick question about the submerged computer....

Was wondering if it could be applied to monitors.... either LCD or CRT.

Next week I have to create some visual art for one of my classes at university and thought it be could to have a monitor submerged in oil playing some footage of fishes.

I mean logical would say that mineral oil is not conductive so it should be a problem right?

[username]

What type of thermal compound do you use for the cpu heatsink? I am guessing a pad or something because the usual stuff dissolves. Can you please post a link to what you used? I didn't see it anywhere in the mineral oil pc write up.

Thanks

[seosecrets]

The most commonly used interface material in the electronics cooling area is thermal compound, a sticky paste applied directly on the heatsink or CPU. A good-quality thermal compound will provide the best possible performance. However, the disadvantage of thermal compound is that it is quite messy to handle, and therefore not suitable for mass production. The thermal compound that im talking is the ArcticSilver II.

[Vincent_Vega]

Firs of all hey to all :)
Why not make a sealed siple pc case filled with synthetic motor oil?i`ts more liquid`ish.I know th`s not transparent tho if u have a normal case let`s say with a glass bar so u can see the lvlit should`t be transparent...........more cheap to lol.

[misiu_mp]

Do you still have the old v1 system or you dismounted it for v2?
I'm still concerned about the oil corroding rubbers and plastics. We know it works well for a little longer than a year, but it would be certainly more reassuring the system is good after much longer periods (possibly up to 5 years).
Would be nice if you kept retiring systems in the oil somewhere in storage just to test long-term effect of the oil. You could then start them up for some test runs twice a year or so.

[Markes12344]

Hello singularity!

All the drives in this unit are external. The hard drive is ESATA, and the optical drive is USB2.0. This is necessary, as their moving parts would not function under oil. However, we're going to try dipping an old hard drive, and will let you know what happens!

We have not seen a problem with capacitors or wicking oil into small spaces where it can't be cooled, but we will be posting a follow up in about a month that will cover our observations with long term use.

Putting the hard drive in the oil will be a disaster after time. every hard disk drives have air breather holes that allow air to equalize in pressure. in the oil it will seep in these holes slowly. causing it to slow down and stop only way to fix if drain oil by keeping out for weeks. and hoping oil isn't to sticky so it sticks to the needle and disk.

I have had my computer in mineral oil for 4 months so far. DJing with it and always getting questions. i have a Transmision Oil cooler on it with a water pump i bought from kw surplus. overclocking everything on my ASUS Motherboard with 8800gt nividia graphics card, i5 intel and 3x2gb ddr3.
Problems i have found.

Solid state melted before i had transmission oil cooler.
Hard to move. (drain- refill)
Some how oil goes up cords over the top then down to my cd/dvd drive. its kind of like the drive siphons oil.

[Markes12344]

Do you still have the old v1 system or you dismounted it for v2?
I'm still concerned about the oil corroding rubbers and plastics. We know it works well for a little longer than a year, but it would be certainly more reassuring the system is good after much longer periods (possibly up to 5 years).
Would be nice if you kept retiring systems in the oil somewhere in storage just to test long-term effect of the oil. You could then start them up for some test runs twice a year or so.

I believe Puget Systems have been leaving there computer in oil RUNNING for as long as they can. i bet in 3 more years you will have your results on long term affect in the oil. me personaly i started with a low budget dell in the oil then upgraded my ASUS motherboard, i5 intel,DDR3 3x2gb 1600 ram and 8800gt Nividia. into the oil. it has been in for 4 months now and no problems give me 56 more months and i can tell you my results on the rubber.

[Markes12344]

Firs of all hey to all :)
Why not make a sealed siple pc case filled with synthetic motor oil?i`ts more liquid`ish.I know th`s not transparent tho if u have a normal case let`s say with a glass bar so u can see the lvlit should`t be transparent...........more cheap to lol.

The question with that is dose that oil cunduct electricity? simplest way you can test this is Get a small container. Lid or something perhaps don't need a lot of oil.
Then get a volt meter and battery. Then place the negative pole on the negative of the meter. Then place the positive end some how in the oil (wire or battier itself) and the positive of the meter in the oil. move the voltmeter positive pole closer and close to the battery. if you end up having to touch the battery to get any type of reading then the oil would be safe enough electricity wise. is you get any reading before touching the battery. well just times that by a lot when you think about putting 120v in the oil and get a zap.

The next question is will the oil eat away at the rubber. i don't know how you may test that. by simply putting and old none used computer in it. Me personally am using the Crystal 70t like Puget and am having no problems.